Ep. #169: Sleep, Insomnia & Nervous System Healing with Irina Macare
If sleep has started to feel like something you have to work at, you’re not alone.
And it’s probably not because you’re doing it wrong.
In this episode of The Energy Fix, Tansy sits down with Irina Macare, sleep coach and specialist in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia (CBT-I), to unpack what’s really going on when sleep becomes difficult.
This isn’t a conversation about perfect routines or rigid rules.
Instead, Irina breaks down how burnout, chronic stress, and nervous system dysregulation quietly interfere with sleep—often even when you’re doing all the “right” things.
They explore the limitations of traditional sleep advice, the role of hormones and emotional health, and how small, strategic changes can help your body feel safe enough to rest again.
If you’ve ever thought, “Why isn’t this working for me?”—this episode answers that question in a way that actually makes sense.
Listen & Watch
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Listen & Watch 🎙
What We Cover
In this episode, we talk about:
Why sleep problems persist even when you’re “doing everything right”
The connection between burnout, stress, and insomnia
How the nervous system impacts your ability to fall and stay asleep
What sleep hygiene really means (and what it doesn’t)
The basics of CBT-I and why it’s considered the gold standard
Hormonal and emotional influences on sleep
Why pushing yourself to sleep can backfire
How to shift out of performance mode at night
Small, practical changes that support real rest
Creating a personalized approach to sleep
Key Takeaways
Sleep is not a checklist—it’s a biological response to safety
Burnout and chronic stress can keep your body in a state of alertness
Traditional sleep advice doesn’t work for everyone
CBT-I offers structured, evidence-based support for insomnia
Hormones and emotional health play a significant role in sleep quality
Forcing sleep often increases resistance
Small, consistent changes can support better rest
Your sleep patterns are not a personal failure
Favorite Quotes & Sound Bites
A few moments you’ll want to remember:
“Sleep finally feels like it stops being this checklist.”
“Pushing actually can make it harder.”
“If this stuff isn’t working, now what?”
“What is your definition of sleep hygiene?”
“Just be like, okay, I don’t have to stay awake.”
“What is one small change that you can make?”
Chapters
08:07 – Burnout, stress & why sleep gets disrupted
18:49 – Nervous system + hypervigilance (the “tired but wired” state)
27:04 – Timing matters: exercise, meals & circadian rhythm
36:08 – Shifting from effort → intention in sleep routines
42:36 – What CBT-I is and why it works
47:52 – Supplements, melatonin & common misconceptions
54:12 – Blue light, screens & what actually matters
65:28 – Consistent wake times & rebuilding sleep patterns
71:50 – Simple starting points when you feel overwhelmed
78:31 – Final reminder: you don’t have to earn rest
Why This Episode Matters
Because sleep struggles don’t just stay at night.
They spill into everything.
It can show up as:
lying awake even when you’re exhausted
waking up at 2–3am with a busy mind
feeling wired and tired at the same time
doing all the “sleep hygiene” things… and still not sleeping
feeling anxious about bedtime itself
starting to question your body
And the frustrating part?
The more you try to force sleep, the harder it can become.
This episode matters because it shifts the focus away from control and toward safety.
Irina explains how sleep is not something you make happen—it’s something your body allows when it feels regulated enough.
This isn’t about adding more to your routine.
It’s about understanding what your system actually needs.
About Irina Macare
Irina Macare is a certified sleep coach who helps busy professionals overcome insomnia and rebuild healthy, consistent sleep using simple, science-based tools. Her personalized approach blends tools and coaching practices based in CBT-I — Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia, the gold-standard, evidence-based method for treating chronic insomnia — with techniques from mindfulness, Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, and behavior change coaching.
Irina meets clients where they are, helping them break sleep-disruptive habits, calm the mind, and rebuild confidence in their ability to sleep well — naturally and without medication. Her mission is to make better sleep feel achievable, sustainable, and stress-free.
Links Mentioned In The Show
Website: https://www.irinamacare.com/
LinkedIn: @irinamacare
IG: @irina_macare
Melatonin Myths - Scientific Data vs The Internet video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i995pkNCkmY
Light glasses:
Ayo brand: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B88BCDXQ
Retimer 3: https://www.amazon.com/retimer-Circadian-Naturally-Melatonin-Integrated/dp/B0DDX4WT11/
Just Thrive Probiotics: Use code TANSY15 for 15% off your entire order
Podcast review promo...Get 15% off a distance energy healing session or a piece of jewelry with a positive review of the show. Email photo of review (after submitted on podcast platform) to info@tansyrodgers.com
Support Beyond The Episode
If this conversation hit home, and you’re craving deeper support (not just ideas, but real integration):
Join the newsletter →
If this episode helped you feel a little less alone in your sleep struggles, follow or subscribe to The Energy Fix.
And if you know someone quietly struggling with sleep, share this with them.
If there’s something you’ve been navigating and want explored on the podcast, you’re always welcome to reach out.
Transcript
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Tansy Rodgers (00:13.73)
Welcome back to the Energy Fix, a podcast dedicated to help you balance your energetic body by diving deep into the sweet world of all things health and spirituality. My name's Tansy and I'm an intuitive crystal Reiki energy healer, energetic nutrition and holistic health practitioner, and a crystal jewelry designer. It's time to talk all things energy. Let's dive in. Welcome back to the Energy Fix podcast.
Today, we're going to be talking all about sleep. And I want to stress here that this is not the conventional sleep conversation that gets thrown around in holistic or conventional style podcasts or conventional style episodes. We're going to be diving deep. And it's why I was so excited to have today's guest on the show. know, her and I met in a networking group, in a mastermind group.
And I was just blown away, not only by her knowledge and her take on the concept of sleep, but also on her energy and the passion that came out of her when she was talking about why she does what she does and why she's so passionate about this work. We're going to be talking about the kind of sleep issues that show up when you're doing quote unquote all the right things, but yet you're still exhausted.
and your body still won't let you drop down into a deep sleep. mean, really, what is going on there, right? The tired but wired nights, the doom scroll bedtime procrastination that so many people fall into, and that 3 a.m. wide-eyed ceiling stare when your brain suddenly wants to just solve every single problem in your entire life. We've all been there.
outside of the supplements and all of that stuff. Yeah, that stuff can be great, but what else could possibly be going on? My guest today is Irina Macare She is a certified sleep coach who helps busy professionals overcome insomnia and rebuild consistent sleep using simple science-based tools. Her approach blends CBT-I, which, just so you know, it is the gold standard.
Tansy Rodgers (02:31.596)
for chronic insomnia. And she blends that with mindfulness, acceptance and commitment therapy and behavior change coaching. So sleep finally feels like it stops being this checklist and something that you can move a little bit easier through. We're going to talk about stress sleep loop, why effort makes insomnia worse sometimes, but actually regulates the nervous system at night and also how to
Rebuild trust when your own sleep feels like it just doesn't want to come easy. All right, Irina, we're gonna get into it. Let's dive in. Hi.
Irina Macare (03:14.478)
Hi Tansy and thank you so much for inviting me to your podcast and your words were amazing. Like I was having goosebumps when you were talking about like my passion because I've been talking so much about it, but I've never heard reflecting it back this way. So it feels so rewarding to hear that what I'm trying to put out there actually gets it. Like people are actually getting it.
Tansy Rodgers (03:40.236)
Yeah, well, I mean, truly, when I talked to you, it was like I knew right away, I'm like, I need to have her on my show because it was just, it just exuded out of you. And so I'm just, I'm so honored to have you here.
Irina Macare (03:53.742)
Thank you so much.
Tansy Rodgers (03:55.702)
Yeah. All right. Well, before we get into this incredible conversation, I want to know more about you as an individual and where you're at in this season of your life, either personally, professionally, or a mix of both. Is there a word or a phrase that you're really embodying right now?
Irina Macare (04:14.35)
Well, this is so interesting asking this because for the last five years or so, at the beginning of each year, I choose a word that I want to, uh, guide me to my, my behavior. So instead of choosing a goal, use a a word that it's like the North star. And for me, this year is intentional. Um, and that's because, um, I've been doing.
this business for some time and I noticed some patterns going on. It is so different to do your, to be an entrepreneur versus being in a corporate. And I've noticed that it's easier to hide when things are getting hard. And as an, also have ADHD and I do a lot of masking. And one of the things that I've noticed doing is that whenever something feels uncomfortable, like I run away and hide.
Um, and uncomfortable doesn't mean like a hard work. I'm a hard worker, but there's something that, for example, phone calls, phone calls, terrify me. If I have to make an appointment on the, on a phone call, like, no, I will postpone it until the cows come back home. Um, but, so this year, um, I have, um, I choose to put myself out there to do uncomfortable stuff and, um,
I have to be intentional with that because it's so easy to hide.
Tansy Rodgers (05:45.954)
Yeah, okay. I need to do a little follow-up with this because intentionality, my gosh, you said the phone calling like, ugh, that is so hard. I agree with you. ADHD here as well, I get it. So I'm curious with that intentionality and some of these obstacles that you're trying to work through, especially when your brain is pushing you the opposite direction, how do you personally, Irina, find the courage
to move forward and just step into that standard.
Irina Macare (06:20.078)
That's a hard question.
Irina Macare (06:24.558)
To take the example of phone calls.
It's not the first time when I'm doing an appointment on the phone call. I often, after the call is done, it's like, oh, it wasn't so hard. So I'm trying to be present in the moment and to remember that feeling and to tell myself, it's not the end of the world. You can do it.
Um, I think it goes back to re reminding myself of my values and why do I do things? So for example, in my business, I want to help people and, um, haven't talked about this, but like I quit my full-time job. I was an IT engineer for 16 years. I was working on the one of the five, um, top five companies, IT companies in the world. So I had like an amazing job.
but I was feeling miserable. So I choose to quit my job and my career and become a sleep coach. And I do this because I love what I, I love sleep, I love science and I love helping people. So when it comes to my business and doing hard things, for example, marketing, selling, like we have to do this in our business. I remind myself that there are so many people out there that are struggling with sleep and I've been in their shoes and I know how hard it is.
I have the skill and the capacity to help them. And if I'm not doing this, I'm actually doing them a disfavor. So that's often what I'm trying to repeat myself is like, you need to do this because you have a purpose. So that's what motivates me.
Tansy Rodgers (08:07.078)
I was thinking as you were talking, are you familiar since you since you identify with having ADHD and you know getting to know more about your brain? Do you know what RSD is? Okay, so for those who don't know RSD, rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria. And so I'm just really curious, do you think because I can relate to this, do you feel like part of that fear of stepping into some of these things?
Irina Macare (08:19.074)
Yes, yes.
Tansy Rodgers (08:35.52)
is because of that rejection? Yeah.
Irina Macare (08:37.902)
Absolutely.
Irina Macare (08:41.91)
Working in a business where you are the face of the business, puts you out there. And in business as in every situation, there is rejection. There is no multiple no's actually you are more protected of the no's when you're working corporate. And I'm also a people pleaser and I have very high standards for myself.
It's rejection from the others, but also rejections that comes from the inside. You know, I reject myself sometimes and then I am disappointed and it feels so hard when I'm disappointed on myself. yes, oh God, honestly, like when I've learned about ADHD and that I had ADHD, I was diagnosed at 35. It was such a life changer because it named some of the things that I was experiencing. I thought it was just me and I thought that it's.
I'm broken, you know, but it changed the narrative. I'm not broken. My brain is wired differently and I experienced the world in a different way. And it doesn't mean that I'm less than it's just that I have to do things in a different way. rejection sensitive dysphoria. It's not healing it, but it makes me more aware of it. And when it happens, I'm more compassionate with myself. So I'm not like judging myself too.
Tansy Rodgers (10:03.968)
If you're listening to this podcast episode, there is a really good chance that you're the person who holds a lot.
And sometimes the issue isn't that you need more information. Sometimes you need your system to feel safe enough to actually integrate what you already know. That's what my SoulStream and Enlighten Sessions are for. They're intuitive, energy-based sessions designed to help you recalibrate emotionally, energetically, physically, and in your nervous system so you can move through life with more clarity and less internal noise.
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People book these when they're feeling stuck, overloaded, anxious, emotionally heavy, or like their energy isn't fully theirs anymore. And we work with that. We work with what's present, clear what's been lingering, and help you come back to center in a way that feels grounded and real. If you want to book a session or you want to simply know more, you can head on over to TansyRogers.com or jump down into the show notes and click the link that will
you directly to those services. And if you're not sure which session is the right fit, send me a message. I'll help you choose. I'll help to guide you in the right direction. All right, let's jump back into this episode. Let's talk about your journey because I'm sure that a lot of that played into some of the issues you had with sleep and why you're so passionate about doing this work. Now, how did you end up doing sleep work and
Tansy Rodgers (11:41.826)
What did you notice along the way that brought your heart to want to help others?
Irina Macare (11:47.906)
That's such a good question. And I'm trying to keep the short version, but basically, as I was saying, my background and my education is in engineering. was working in IT for 16 years. IT is hard. Many jobs are hard, but there is so much competition and I burn out multiple times. And with burnout comes sleep problems. And I've suffered for insomnia for many, many years.
In the beginning, it started here and there and I was pushing through with caffeine and willpower. But at some point, the situation became so bad that it wasn't a matter of like a question of if I will wake up. So my insomnia was, I was able to fall back asleep, but I was waking up in the middle of the night and it was taking me hours to fall back asleep. And usually it was like just before my alarm was starting.
So the question was not if I will wake up during the night, but how long will, at what time and for how long will I be awake? And of course there were so many mental calculation. How many hours did I sleep? How many hours do I have left? Will I be able to make it the next day? How tired will I be? How is the day? Do I have many meetings? Will it be boring? Will I fall asleep in the meeting?
so much rumination, so much stress that happened in my mind during those nights.
It took, knew that I didn't want to go to the doctor to get sleep medication. And, I was, I always loved science and personal development and health. So I started reading about it and trying different things and experimenting. I'm really, whenever I'm passionate about something, this is an ADHD traits. We get.
Irina Macare (13:43.818)
obsessed about things. I was talking about it with my friends, with my colleagues. So some of my friends were actually trying the things that I was saying and they were coming back and they were saying, I've tried what you're saying and it's working and I feel so much better. So that feeling gave me, I don't know how to describe it. So, so rewarding and moving fast forward, how working in corporate and America has its own challenges, like on top of everything else. And I felt like.
We had a joke, an internal joke in my company is like one, year of working in that company equals seven years in the industry. it was like, just an internal joke. was like really hard. So at some point with my second burnout, I started, it came also with depression. and I was asking like existential questions. had the money. had like everything that I've dreamed of and I achieved, but I was like miserable.
physically, mentally, emotionally exhausted. So it's like, what's my purpose in life? What do I work for? And with that depression came a lot of therapy where I discovered that I have ADHD. And I realized that some of my executive skills that were strength were actually not something that I was using in my current job. And some of the executive skills that I needed for my job were actually my weaknesses.
because of my IDAG and I realized, no matter how much I try to be a good engineer, I will not be like the greatest. And also it makes me feel miserable. So I decided to quit my job. No, I started my own business. Like I've decided to do, to take my passion and try to see if I can make it working.
At that time, there was a certification for sleep stress management and recovery launched by precision nutrition, which is a very famous company for their nutrition certification. They're very well, like evidence-based, very, very good. So I've tried that. I got that certification and that's how I started to be a sleep coach. Because like I never planned to be coach. It was just to start a line.
Irina Macare (16:00.814)
And then from there, once my business started to grow and to have clients, I couldn't keep both my job and my business. So I had to quit my job and I started doing full time sleep coaching for two years now. Yeah.
Tansy Rodgers (16:19.694)
That's incredible. I want to go back to something you said. You mentioned burnout and I'm really curious, how does burnout and chronic stress actually disrupt your sleep? Like how did you see it? Like what's going on in the nervous system when that happens that is throwing you out of alignment and causing you to wake up at multiple times, but also
the rumination and all of the stressful thoughts that are going through your brain. I'm curious how that actually is affecting the physical body.
Irina Macare (16:55.296)
It's interesting because burnout, lot of people think that burnout is just tired, being extremely tired. But it's not only that. At some point in my career, like I took a short term disability leave, I think it was six or eight weeks. I thinking that will help with my burnout. It did help with my physical energy. But once I turned back and I was in the same environment, like I returned to the original state.
very fast. So burnout is not only like an energy management imbalance, it's also out of alignment. You're doing things that does not bring joy. It's like killing your soul slowly. So yeah, you do recover for, you recover your physical energy throughout like weekend or vacation, but mentally you're still exhausted and unfulfilled.
And regarding sleep and the nervous system, basically when we are in a go, go, go, from morning until evening, we are always scanning to see like to solve problems, to see potential issues. And we're in this state from morning until we go to bed without any break, without take, like if we take a break, silence feels uncomfortable.
And often we grab our phone or we get distracted. We've, forgot how it is to be still with our thoughts. So basically our nervous systems, it's always on looking for danger danger. So the nervous system was, okay, so let me take a step back. When it comes to sleep, there are three systems in the body that are involved in sleep regulation. So one is the sleep drive, which is responsible for sleep pressure that tells us.
that it's time to sleep, like when you've been awake enough, it's like hunger and it's a hunger for sleep. Then the other system is circadian rhythm. it's, it tells us like, when should we be awake and when should we be asleep? And it's regulated by the light darkness cycle. And then there is a third system. It's called the hyper arousal system, which overrides the other two when we like, it's the
Irina Macare (19:16.524)
Vigilance system, it always checks for threats. So if you are in danger, think about like the prehistoric human, when we were living in cave, if there was a tiger coming to eat you, like it didn't matter if your sleep pressure was high, if your circadian rhythm was saying it's like, okay, it's time to rest. You couldn't go to the tiger and say, Hey, Mr. Tiger, it's time to sleep. Come next morning. No, you, the, the hyper vigilance, like the vigilance system.
had to override your system so that to keep us safe and to be able to run from threats. Okay? In the current world, anything can be a threat. The deadlines, the bills, the kids that you have to pick from school. Your nervous system doesn't know that it's a perceived stress or a real stress to your life. So when you go to sleep because your nervous system was on the entire day, it doesn't flip.
off like in instant, it still keeps you awake. And in order to fall asleep, you need to be in a parasympathetic state, meaning in like rest and digest, calm and relax. When you're in hypervigilance, you're in sympathetic state and that state is not compatible with sleep. So it's very hard to be entered into sleep in a sleep state. And also some
physical processes has to happen is like your body temperature has to go down. Your cortisol levels have to go down. When you are stressed, cortisol is high. If cortisol is high, melatonin is not released because cortisol inhibits melatonin. So there are physiological and psychological mechanisms that are preventing you from sleeping or getting into deep stages of sleep.
Some people, are able to sleep, with every faint noise, they wake up because the nerve, like the brain scans it, scans the environment for any sound, for any danger. So it takes you out of the sleep so that you're not in danger.
Tansy Rodgers (21:24.82)
Yeah. makes total sense. And that's so interesting because so the hyper arousal system, is that what explains the tired but wired concept?
Irina Macare (21:37.826)
Yes. You're nervous system did not get the memo that the day is off. It's still, you still think of like the email that you have to say to send or what you said in a meeting at 4 PM or you have to do so many things. So your mind is still running and you're, you don't even breathe properly. the other thing is like when you're lying in the darkness, even
normal problem became catastrophic. So our mind, it's, we are tired. We are not capable of doing good thinking, you know, and the darkness amplify everything that comes into your mind. How many times did you wake up in the middle of the night, had a thought that puts you in a panic. And then when you woke up the next day, it's like, why did I stress about that? We feel things differently in the middle of the night. So
That feeds the loop of anxiety and hyper-erosal.
Tansy Rodgers (22:43.118)
Sometimes I just want to take that little computer chip out of my brain that causes the worry and the brumination and just be like, can I just put it aside for a little bit? I know, yeah. You know, you were also saying, as you were talking, I was thinking about some of the work that I do and some of the environments that I used to work in. And I have a question for you.
Irina Macare (22:55.587)
Yeah.
Tansy Rodgers (23:11.074)
I used to work in physical therapy full-time. I worked with a lot of athletes, would always see kids that would have these late night games, athletes going to the gym or doing workouts later on. And I know that exercise, even though healthy for the body, is also raising your cortisol levels and raising stress in the body. I'm curious, does that play a factor in the whole sleep hyper arousal concept too? mean like,
Are our kids that are doing late night games at like eight, nine o'clock at night, not actually getting the sleep that they need?
Irina Macare (23:47.19)
Yes, yes, their sleep is definitely impacted. So what I was thinking, why I'm hesitating is because exercise is good. And if you have no option in exercising throughout the day, the only option is to work out at night. A little bit of workout, it's better than nothing, right? Even if your sleep is going to be affected, can take some measurements to reduce the impact of late workout.
to your body. But it's not. Yes, cortisol does increase and when we are running it there is adrenaline, there are endorphins, but it's also the body temperature. So as I was saying, the body temperature has to go down in order for us to sleep. When you work out, when you run, like your body temperature goes up. And that could also impact your sleep as well. So it might take some time for
for you to cool down and to miss the window where you should go to bed and to have like an optimal sleep. another problem that I'm seeing because a circadian rhythm, it's very, it impacts us so much in because different organs are on and off at a specific time of the day. We cannot have everything running to be on all at once. Like our body doesn't have
capacity to keep that energy. So the central clock tells different organs when to be on and when to be off. And late in the evening, muscles are not in the optimal stage for working out. That doesn't mean you cannot work out. You can, but it's not optimal because at that stage, your body expects to cool down and to transition into sleep.
So the organs necessary for this transition, they're starting to be on and the other to be off. So the body is optimized for rest, not for working out. My point is your performance is not going to be great at that time of the day if you care about it. So your sleep is impacted. Your cortisol is going to be high. Your body temperature is going to raise.
Irina Macare (26:14.03)
And you're not going to perform better. But with that being said, evening is the only time the entire week when you can exercise. Sometimes like you have to see where you do the compromise. And it's a decision than just doing things randomly. Does this answer your question?
Tansy Rodgers (26:37.152)
Yeah, it makes total sense. And I'm glad you just clarified that because I know, I know that, like, I know that we need to calm the body down, get more into parasympathetic spaces, you know, to be in the deeper sleep cycles that we want to be in. But also, you know, like I said, the work that I used to do full time, I would see the complete opposite. And I was just curious what your take was on that. And it makes complete sense.
Irina Macare (27:04.782)
Yeah. And sleep, it's becoming more and more, it gets more and more attention, especially in the performance athletes. And there is like an entire science for sleep and performance because they recognize the impact of sleep in performance. And I just watched the Olympic, the winter Olympic games and the difference between silver and gold was like fractions of seconds, hundreds of
seconds, like a 0.01, let's say when, when this every tiny reflex matter, you have to optimize things. yeah, things are very interesting in the sleep science world when it comes to sleep, to sports performance.
Tansy Rodgers (27:51.264)
Yeah, yeah. I'm curious. I want to go back to something you just talked about. You talked about these organs that turn on, that shut off, you know, the cycle, the natural cycle. Is there anything there that we need to be aware of in regards to helping us get into that sleep cycle and to also have a smooth night in regards to these organs that are playing a factor?
Irina Macare (28:17.162)
Yeah, that's the timing of eating. Meal timing, it's very important. So our circadian rhythm is not exactly 24 hours. So the name circadian, it's like circa in Latin means approximately, dm, it's day. So approximately 24 hours. We need the
or like some signals from outsides called zeitgebers to reset our circadian rhythm to be aligned again with what's day and night. And we can do that light is the most potent zeitgeber like light is the signal that helps us reset our circadian rhythm. But temperature is another one, but meal timing is very important.
And if you are traveling and if you're having jet lag, one of the aspects that you should take care of is like eating at the same time as with the time in the current zone you are. So to help shifting your circadian rhythm to the current zone. So basically what happens at night, the entire digestive system is the kitchen, it's closed basically. So before sleep, it is being prepared for repair.
So during sleep, lot of tissue repair happens and the digestive system is being repaired. If you eat in the evening, the food is not going to rot in your stomach. Your stomach will, is going to start digesting the food, but it's not optimal for digesting that food. So it takes some times until, until all the juices are being produced, liver as well, pancreas as well. Like you need so many things to be involved in the digestive.
and none of those organs are prepared for food incoming. So it takes more time, motility, which is a movement of the food into your intestines, it's reduced. So the food stays longer into your intestines. So basically, if you're eating at a time like too late in the evening, you might have problems with digestion, it's not going to be optimal.
Irina Macare (30:39.81)
But also the core body temperature will increase because the blood flow will be redirected from the extremities to your digestive system so that it absorbs and does all the stuff. And that means like your core body temperature increase and the core body temperature is responsible for like, it matters to go down to enter sleep. So that might prevent you from entering deep stages of sleep.
Tansy Rodgers (31:08.29)
Yeah, but on average, how, how I've always read like maybe like two to three hours before you actually fall down to sleep. Do you have a different recommendation or does that seem about right?
Irina Macare (31:22.478)
It seems right. And again, we haven't talked about chronotypes, but chronotypes are what you might know as a night owl or early bird. I like that you said like how many, how much time before going to sleep and not like 6 a.m. or 6 p.m. or like 4 p.m. or 9 p.m. right? Because that's often the conversation that I'm having. It's reported to the time going to sleep and for some people who are sleeping late, like
2 a.m. because that's their natural rhythm. Eating at 10 p.m. makes sense. But yeah, around two, three hours. And I have to say that if you have diabetes or insulin problems, a light snack would be beneficial. again, be mindful of the trades off that you are making because sometimes if you're trying to listen to an advice to make something good, you're breaking something else.
understand the mechanism and the stance of the trade off and then take an informed decision. yeah, if insulin, it's, it's a problem and you need to have like a light snack with some carbs. But what's the word of not starchy carbs, like the ones that are not.
Irina Macare (32:41.528)
Complex curves?
Tansy Rodgers (32:42.956)
Yes, yeah.
Irina Macare (32:45.134)
with some fat and some, that will be digested or absorbed slower. So no, not processed sugar. That will spike your blood sugar. So having a snack before bed will, for some people, might prevent waking up in the middle of the night. Some people wake up in the middle of the night because of blood sugar drops and insulin goes up.
Tansy Rodgers (33:12.32)
Yeah, that's how I am. I have to, I can't push it to three hours because then I wake up in the middle of the night and I'm so hungry. I mean, I'm hungry all the time, but if I don't have something, just a little something, it really wrecks with my blood sugar.
Irina Macare (33:29.61)
Yeah. Well, in that case, don't just have like a big meal. guess that will make the difference, but a light snack will be beneficial for you if you know that that what helps. So I always liked to teach people the mechanism behind it to enable them to take decision for themself. Because if I tell them like black and white rules, then they will not be able to take this kind of decision on their own.
Tansy Rodgers (33:59.648)
Yeah, yeah. Well, okay, so let's talk about that whole concept, the concept of pushing harder. You you have maybe some insomnia or maybe you have trouble just falling asleep at night. And I know that this is, mean, I've been guilty with this myself. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna go to sleep earlier. And then I get there and I'm like, you know.
I have a goal in place and I get there. It was like, there is no way sleep is coming to me. And I feel like it's this pressure. So let's talk about that. Explain why pushing actually can make it harder. And what do we do instead?
Irina Macare (34:40.072)
This is such a hard one because many of my clients, they're A type because they're so used to have a goal to fight for the goal. But the bad news is that sleep does not reward effort. Sleep is a passive state that happens when the right conditions are in order, you know? And the more you try, the harder it is to sleep because your nervous system, back to the nervous system,
sees a sleep effort as a threat. And that makes you be more alert. So they, one of the solution is just to allow, to accept the situation, even if it doesn't feel right. So even if it feels uncomfortable, just accepting the situation tells your nervous system that you're safe. And it is that concept of being safe that is
is the key and it doesn't have to you like it or not. It's just making peace with it. So in many situations, a lot of people, like I present tools and they were telling me, so is it okay if I listen to a meditation? Will that help me sleep? Or is it okay if I listen to a podcast? And my question is like, what's, how are you executing that thing?
What's your intention behind it? Do you want to listen an audio book or a podcast because it makes you feel good and you enjoy it and just allows you to be, or do you do that because you want it to distract you so that it makes you to fall asleep? And this is the nuance, the difference. It's the effort behind it, the intention behind it.
Because if you're doing anything that I tell you with the intention of, need to do this. I need to do the breathing so that it calms my nervous system so I can sleep. You see already, I'm like, I'm hyped, you know? But if I'm like, okay, I just need to breathe. And I'm safe in this moment without thinking of like, I need to sleep. Or if I have this many hours of sleep to sleep until I wake up.
Irina Macare (37:04.93)
There is one of the hardest things to accomplish just to allow and to let go, especially for the people who are used to being in control and to direct everything and to put effort into achieving things. So it's not, it's, you can achieve that with, with work. but it's, it's hard work and contraintuitive. And I like to say that sleep is like a cat, you know,
If you're trying to go to it, it will run away. And as soon as you let go and you ignore the cat, the cat will come to you when she wants to. So sleep is exactly the same. It will come to you when you will feel relaxed, when the conditions are right.
Tansy Rodgers (37:49.452)
That is true with the cat as well. Very true. And so, yeah. So I have to, I have to share this because I feel, I feel like exactly what you said. And again, I was just doing this intuitively. feel like exactly what you said is exactly what helped me. And so I will lay there when I can feel myself amped up, I will lay there and I will number one, give myself permission to actually go to sleep. Just be like, okay, I don't have to stay awake. I'm allowed. I don't have to sit here and think about this.
give myself permission, number one. Number two, just laying there with my eyes closed, taking some deep breaths. And I literally try to look at my brain like that space, when I have my eyes closed, that space in my brain, I literally try to look at it as like a blank slate. Like there is nothing there. And I just focus on that. And I will tell you, Irina, the more that I practice that, the more that I fall asleep,
like that. It's wild. It's wild. But I feel like, I feel like sometimes just giving yourself permission to not ruminate on something really does a trick for you.
Irina Macare (38:58.184)
And there are multiple tools that help you, help with that. And that's where acceptance and commitment therapy comes in handy with some tools. Cognitive diffusion is one of my favorite ones because it puts some space between you and your thoughts. You are not your thoughts. And when thoughts are coming, observing them and naming them, for example, or saying is like, I'm having the thought that tomorrow is going to be hard.
So that makes some space between you and your thoughts and allows to, to relax and not act on your emotions. And act can be like thinking. So cognitive diffusion is one tool. Another one that I like is you're rewriting the plot of your favorite book. Or you're doing a walk every day with your dog and you're doing
You are very familiar with that. can imagine each step. Like you put the collar on the dog, you put the leash on, you open the door, you unlock the door, you take the first step, you look right, you look right. So this takes you out of like that cognitive loop and it moves your attention, distracts you from what you're having and gives focus to a mind to something else. And that's why counting sheep doesn't, doesn't work because it's not stimulating enough.
But it has to be pleasant and it doesn't have to, you should not think of like situation or emotion that distress you or make you too excited. know, we want to get into that deep relaxation state and not forget, but like get distracted from our own thoughts.
Tansy Rodgers (40:43.746)
Yeah, I know too, it also helps with thinking about that along those lines. I know too, it also really helps me when I lay there and I start to do visualization and visualizations towards something that makes me feel peaceful or makes me feel happy and excited.
Irina Macare (40:59.53)
Exactly. Exactly. So you intuitively know what works for you and how it makes you feel more relaxed. And just, you said something also that a lot of people don't realize that resting is actually not bad. If you're laying in bed, resting, even if you're not sleeping, it's better than being awake and doing stuff.
Because when you are lying in bed, your heart rate is down, your cortisol level stays down. So it's not nothing. And just telling yourself and reminding yourself, it's okay just to lay in bed and relax. It's better than nothing. So that's another way of reframing the situation instead of worrying.
Tansy Rodgers (41:53.058)
Let's expand on this more. Let's talk about that concept of CBTI. Now, when I heard it the first time and you talked about it being the gold standard, it sounded very clinical. sounded very rigid. And so I would love to know just more about this. What is CBTI really? And what makes it so effective for chronic insomnia when people are really struggling? Because honestly, honestly, Irene, I think that this, what we're just gonna talk about
I think that this is really a missing factor that so many people don't even think about addressing in the first place to help with their insomnia. So go on.
Irina Macare (42:36.554)
Yes. and CPTI, CPTI comes from cognitive behavior therapy for insomnia and is the gold standard for insomnia treatment because... Where should I start?
First of all, it's evidence-based, like it's been trialed. There are so many studies that showed the benefits. and it stands off like three or four type of therapies that can be monotherapies or combined. I mean, there is the sleep restriction, which everybody is on agreement that it's such a term.
A sleep restriction should be named time in bed restriction. And it works because a lot of people with insomnia, they lay in bed trying to increase the time they can be asleep. And they're trying to, not optimize.
What's the word? Increases the chances of being asleep. So the more I'm in bed, the more chances are to fall asleep. But actually we've discussed about the three system for sleep, a sleep drive and the sleep pressure actually increases as we are awake and as we are active because, yeah, I'm not going to go into details. So.
The more you're active, the more sleep pressure you have. So people with insomnia tend to lay in bed a lot. So they are less active, tend to cancel appointments and social interaction. tend to skip work because they don't feel rested and they're afraid. So that makes things work. And by reducing the time in bed, restricting the time in bed, forcing that person
Irina Macare (44:29.112)
to be more awake, so you're increasing the sleep pressure. And in short term, you are going to feel worse before you feel better. And sometime that is enough for people to regain their sleep, like increasing sleep pressure. it's like, you start, it has like a structure, a formula, how you do it. So this can be done as a monotherapy, like on its own. The other is.
Sleep hygiene is one of the therapies, but many people like to say that sleep hygiene is used as control in sleep studies when CBTI is evolved. yeah, it's not the most efficient one. Cognitive restructuring is another one. And I think that's the part that works with your mind and thoughts. So many people think they have catastrophizing thoughts.
I'm going to die. never going to be able to sleep. I'm going to lose my job. So as a part of the cognitive restructuring.
Yeah. you're to address the thoughts and you're going to look, there any evidence for your thoughts? There are some, some, tools and practices that are helping you to see actually that what you're thinking is not actually true. So, and here's the difference between acceptance and commitment therapy and cognitive behavior therapy, the cognitive behavior therapy tries to re, to replace the thoughts and change your thoughts while acceptance and commitment therapy. It's not.
questioning your thoughts. The thoughts might be valid, but it helps you to distance yourself from the thoughts so that you can live a life that is you enjoy and it's based on your value, even if things are hard. So that's the nuances and that's like the third wave therapy that it's coming in sleep as well because
Irina Macare (46:25.73)
There are people for which cognitive behavior therapy for insomnia does not work because of its rigidity and because of the time limit restriction it's treating. That's where like a lot of people fail and many people is like, are feeling like they're being told what to say. So they're posing to it. And that's where CBTI fails. And that's when acceptance and commitment therapy fills that gap. And I'm not saying that acceptance and commitment therapy should be used on its own.
I think a combination between CBTI and X is the sweet point. It depends on the person in front of who is being treated.
Tansy Rodgers (47:07.712)
Yeah. And doesn't that feel like that is just, that's just the way most stuff is. It's really customized. I would say, especially when it comes to this kind of conversation, because when it to sleep, mean, there's so many things. It could be hormonal. It could be, it could be diet. It could be your sleep hygiene. It could be your, your shadow work and all of the mental and the emotional balance that you need. Right? Like there's so much stuff.
Irina Macare (47:36.0)
Yeah. And taking melatonin and supplements when actually your sleep problems are caused by your nervous system is not going to fix your sleep. So you're basically trying to something. You're treating the symptoms. You're not treating the root cause.
Tansy Rodgers (47:52.686)
Quick pause for a gut check because gut health is not just about digestion. When your gut is supported, can impact so many big picture things like immunity and brain support, mood and energy, and even how steady your nervous system feels day to day. And when your gut is struggling, it can show up as more than bloating or bathroom drama. It can look like feeling run down and more reactive or
foggy or anxious or like you're just not bouncing back the way that you used to. And that's why I'm a big believer in supporting the microbiome as part of a real life wellness foundation, especially if you're under stress, if you're in a busy season of your life or your system is already sensitive. One of my consistent staples is Just Thrive probiotics. I love it because it's simple, it's consistent and it helps me feel like I'm supporting my body's baseline.
without turning my routine upside down. Because here's the reality. When you're supporting your gut, you're often supporting everything downstream, like your immune functioning, your nervous system resilience, and how well your body and your brain can actually do their jobs. If you wanna try it out, you can use code TANZE15 for 15 % off your entire order. Jump down to the show notes.
click the link and make sure to use Tansy 15 for that 15 % off. All right, let's get back into this episode.
Yeah. And so let's just call that out for anybody, any woman who is going through menopause and perimenopause too, because yes, you got the hormonal stuff, but you also have all of the mental and the emotional things that are coming up too. yet so many, and I say this because of the functional nutritional work that I have done, so many people come to you and say,
Tansy Rodgers (49:53.634)
But I've tried melatonin, I've tried rhodiola, I've tried ashwagandha, like all of these supplements and herbs and nothing's working, right? And so let's speak on that. mean, if this stuff isn't working, now what? You tried the magnesium, the tea, the herbs, now what?
Irina Macare (50:14.734)
And let me say something about melatonin. Melatonin is a chronobiotic, meaning it helps you to shift your sleep in the day. It doesn't help you sleep. So people take melatonin as a sleep aid, to make them sleep to, uh, it's like medication for sleep, but it's not that it's just, you can use it for a jet lag when your sleep is out of sync with the day and light and night.
You can take it for people who are having like delayed sleep phase, meaning like, or like very delayed sleep phase, so that they shift their sleep earlier or later. And you take it strategically and dose matter and timing matter. This is something that a lot of people don't understand because there is a phase response to melatonin, the same as there is a phase response to light. Meaning taking melatonin at specific time, your body would react in a different way.
So if you take it in the, in the window where there is no response to melatonin, you take it for nothing. And if you're taking at the wrong time, it can have the opposite effect. It can, if you want to delay it, might advance it or the other way around. So I wouldn't recommend taking melatonin, especially over the counter without, without knowing why you are taking, because it's not a sleep age. It's a chronobiotic. So with that.
Tansy Rodgers (51:39.298)
Let me ask you something on that real quick before you go on, because I'm curious. I had heard, I've read before, concepts around taking too much melatonin too consistently can actually decrease your body's ability to create melatonin. Is that true?
Irina Macare (51:56.11)
Actually, to be honest, I don't know how to answer that question because I've heard different answers. Melatonin, it's not too... We don't know too many things about melatonin. And a recent study showed that melatonin is not only in our brain, it's in the whole body. And melatonin is not only a hormone, it's an antioxidant as well. And it is found in the mitochondria. And it has a very...
oxidative, antioxidative role. So there are studies looking at treating cancer with melatonin. So it's like the new vitamin C. And from what I know, there is no lethal dose for melatonin, meaning like the dose where you can die. So there is no not known one. Though there are studies showing like, especially with, think there is a study where they were talking about kids, some death of kids that took over the counter melatonin.
The problem with over-the-counter melatonin, it's different than what the melatonin that it's prescribed because the over-the-counter melatonin, first of all, is not regulated by the FDA. So you don't know what is on the label if it is exactly the same thing, what you are getting in the capsules. And the second thing, there is no pure melatonin. There is combined with other substances like CBT or rhodiola or like lavender or whatever. I'm just saying.
And we don't know the lethal dose for dose substances. So if there was an impact and if there were deaths because of melatonins in kids, it doesn't mean it was melatonin itself. We don't know exactly what caused death or those kids. And there are some studies where they treated with melatonin neonatal infants. Immediately after they got birth, they treated melatonin as the ones that were treated with melatonin, survived.
and the ones without, died. That's a path for new research to look into melatonin studies. There is a scope of melatonin in different aspects than a circadian regulator.
Tansy Rodgers (54:09.58)
Yeah, that's interesting. That's really interesting.
Irina Macare (54:12.492)
I can send you a video that, a very interesting video that I've, one of the professors that I work with, they created recently and he's very into melatonin.
Tansy Rodgers (54:25.39)
Yeah. Yeah. And if it's okay, I can link that down in the show notes too. Yeah, that'd be awesome. Yeah.
Irina Macare (54:32.322)
He also talks about the blue light and the impact on blue light on sleep and debunking some of the myths.
Tansy Rodgers (54:38.748)
okay. All right, let's talk about that stuff. I just want to talk a little bit about some of the sleep hygiene. First of all, I'm curious what your definition of sleep hygiene is, number one. And number two, what have you found, Irina, as some of the things that work and some things that don't really work, but we think that they do?
Irina Macare (55:02.798)
Okay. So, um, sleep hygiene, the sleep hygiene by the book, um, it, um, offers recommendation on alcohol consumption, caffeine, cutoff time, like some basic things. So sleep hygiene is actually, uh, from 50 or 60. But the problem is like nowadays there are so many things that fall under the umbrella of sleep hygiene, basically.
Everything that we do at night, it's considered sleep hygiene. now depends on like, let's look at the sleep hygiene term from the mode, like our current world. Light, when it comes to light there, it started to be debunked, the blue light. And because I'm in this group of a professor, Michael Grudnisser, he did some studies on the blue light in 2017. I think it was his first study that.
I was showing that basically it's not impacting us as, as we thought it, it did. looking at the studies that stated that blue light is impacting us. There was a key component and that was a photostasis, meaning the adaptation to darkness. So basically in that study, what they did, they brought in, in the lab people, but before they put them in front of the.
screens, they put them in a dark room to get adapted to darkness and then they start testing them, which in our natural life, our day to day life, not happens.
Irina Macare (56:50.358)
Even last time when we talked he was a menace. He doesn't do that. That's why I didn't prepare for it. I'm sorry about that.
So what happens is that it matters so much of your light exposure throughout the day. If you've been outside, like let's say you've been outside at the beach and you've been in natural, bright natural light, the light in the evening, if you're exposed to light, you're going to be less affected by it. Versus if you've been indoor in very dim light.
And then you get exposed to the light, your melatonin is going to be delayed. So it matters what light you are being exposed throughout the day. The brain has a way of counting. Uh, if we can say like that, the, the photons throughout the days, and when it reaches a specific point, it knows that, um, night it's coming. So basically if you get exposed to 1.5 hours before.
If you've been in a darkness throughout the day, darkness, meaning like even my room is pretty dark comparing with the light outside. And if you've kept that phone or tablet like very close to your face, like 30 centimeters or like, I don't know how much is 30 centimeters. No. Yeah. from your face, you're, there is like a
15 minutes, I think, delaying your melatonin. So it's not much. So basically it's not as we thought it is, but it's more, what are we watching on the screen? Is it like...
Irina Macare (58:42.826)
Often we lose track of time and we scroll past our bedtime. So we are sleep deprived because we are delaying bedtime. and how many times did you feel like I'm not sleepy? I can watch another episode. turn off the TV and then actually I was sleeping. So you don't perceive the sleepiness because you're too captured by what you're doing on the phone.
So it's not necessary the melatonin delay that it's keeping you awake.
And with that being said, blue light blocking glasses might be a scam. So I'm not recommending them anymore. And that's the thing with science. Like I was a big fan of that until I've learned about this. Science changes, new discoveries are made. And yeah, we have to admit when we were wrong and change our, our advice. So even with that, even if the blue light does not affect.
your sleep, like delay your sleep. I would recommend not using the phone or the devices at least one hour before bed because of the stimulating effect it has on you. As I was saying, body temperature, core body temperature, it has an impact on sleep. So having a hot shower in the evening helps with that because basically it redirects.
blood to the extremities so the core body temperature goes down even if you feel hot. So that's another thing that I like to recommend. Dimming the lights in the evening will help as well and actually what you do throughout the day matter as much as what you do in the evening. Many people and that's the hope from
Irina Macare (01:00:34.87)
Promises of my program that I'm just launching is so many, so many advices and so many programs focus on the night time, but they miss such a big gap and so many opportunities to do behavior change that helps sleep throughout the day. And the first and the most impactful one is getting light exposure in the morning, in the first 30 minutes when you wake up, bright light exposure. So that's another.
anchor for your circadian rhythm and then getting light throughout the day, having micro breaks throughout the day to regulate your nervous system. So it doesn't like that tension doesn't build up and you're so hyped at night, you know? So giving cues to the body that it's time to sleep. Repetition creates a sense of safety. Because it's predictable and our body and our nervous system knows
to anticipate things and that makes us feel safe. So having, not necessarily a routine, like when you're, I'm saying having a routine, don't think about like a hundred steps or 10 steps of doing that. Even like brushing the teeth and turning the lights, dimming the lights. And I had a client that she was telling me when she was taking a shower every, every evening and her daughter's at some point is like, you're going to bed. And she was like, how do you know I'm going to bed?
Because every time when you take a shower, you then go to bed. So it was a routine for her and your, brain and your, her body knew that sleep is going to come after that. So creating a routine that works for you, giving cues, like even having a tea or I don't know, journaling or something like that, that, that would help a lot.
Tansy Rodgers (01:02:20.782)
What is your, I'm curious, what's your routine that you like to do?
Irina Macare (01:02:25.698)
It is so hard because of my indigeneity and this, but I have a dog and that dog is a creature of habit. So I'm the night shift. My husband is the morning shift because he wakes up at five and go to bed later. So I take the dog out for the potty break. I give him food and treats and kisses and I go to bed. So that's my, my cue. And I do it because it, because I have to.
but it feels so good. It's so hard for me to keep a routine, but this forces me and it feels so good.
Tansy Rodgers (01:03:02.902)
I love that, I love that. You actually said a word that I'm really curious about, because I feel like this comes up all the time. You said the word night shift. Now, I know you meant it in a different way.
But I'm curious, what about people who do work night shift or who are in third shift and they end up having to be awake at night? What is your recommendation? Like does anything shift there really? Or is it just literally reorganizing? Cause I know that the cricketing rhythm is gonna be off. So I'm just curious your thoughts there.
Irina Macare (01:03:35.34)
This is such a hard topic. First of all, this comes into the circadian rhythm disorder, which is mostly under the sleep medicine treatment because it's considered a disorder, but it is so hard because most of the shift workers, they don't have a consistent shift. They have shift that rotates and they don't have control. Most of them, they don't have control of their shift.
So it's so hard to shift their circadian rhythm. By the time they shift it, their shift is changed. And that's where you see the impact of an imbalanced circadian rhythm because they are more predisposed to cancers and to chronic diseases. For them, melatonin and light therapy, that helps the most.
getting light at specific time to shift to delay or to advance their sleep phase, and using melatonin strategically as well. If I'm having an accident or something in the middle of the night, I'm very grateful that there is a firefighter or like a doctor that can take care of me. So I'm very grateful for their work, but it's such a hard situation.
Tansy Rodgers (01:04:57.602)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I was just curious what your advice or tips were there. So as we kind of wrap this up, I'm curious if the listener is here and they're saying that they really want to make some impactful steps going forward. Do you have a simple starter plan for lack of better words, like a little starter plan that you would recommend for somebody to help them just get the momentum moving so they don't feel so overwhelmed?
Irina Macare (01:05:28.206)
Yeah, I would start with one thing and build from that. And that's having a consistent wake up time every single day, including weekends. And it's hard, but it's one of the things that you can control. You cannot control when you fall asleep, but you can control when you wake up and you start by that. And in the beginning, it's hard because then you'll be sleep deprived. You will not be able to sleep on time and you'll have like a shorter time window.
But with time, consistency is as important as, well, it's even more important because when you create consistency, even if you have less sleep, let's say, because your body anticipates that time window of sleep, it knows how to prepare better. And even if it is shorter, it could optimize it. You can get in deeper stages of sleep and you can hit more stages of sleep. Excuse me.
because it know what's to explain. start with consistency, waking up every single day at the same time. I know it's hard. other than that, another easy point is bright light in the morning. And if you, there is, we in the U S we've changed daylights. We had daylight saving this weekend in Europe. I think it's the last weekend in March. So they haven't done it yet.
So our mornings are darker now and that pisses me off because it's like every so many people are happy. Yes, we have more light, more lighting in evening, but we need more light in the morning. So if, if you don't have light where you are, if it's raining or something, you can use a bright light, or a satellite box. It used for.
is effective stored.
Tansy Rodgers (01:07:24.334)
seasonal affect, yeah, seasonal affect.
Irina Macare (01:07:26.766)
Or you can get some light glasses. This is one type. This is called IO and you can put it, so you see it has like a light on there. So I keep them in the morning while I'm drinking my coffee, while I'm like doing some things and I get my bright light while with the satellite, you have to be in front of it. So you're kind of like tied to the place where you have it.
And, that's great because it's like 30, $50 you can find on Amazon and they're cheap. These are like, um, 200, 300 between 200 and 300, but, uh, you can wear them. Like you can have them with you if you're traveling and if you have jet lag.
And you can use it in the morning. So bright light, bright light in the morning. And if you can at noon as well, that would be great. So light exposure during the day.
Tansy Rodgers (01:08:26.994)
It's so interesting because I find more and more health experts are talking about the importance now of having light and even nature exposure, but especially light first thing in the morning. Like, what would you say within like the first 30 minutes to an hour or so? Yeah. Yeah.
Irina Macare (01:08:46.754)
Because as I was saying, our circadian rhythm is not exactly 24 hours and we need anchors to re-sync it. And the morning one is very important because it starts a timer for melatonin to be released like 16 hours later. So having bright light exposure inhibits any melatonin that might have been in your body.
It also helps a little bit with the energy and to reducing the grogginess. And it helps with your circadian rhythm. So yes, get bright light exposure in the morning.
Tansy Rodgers (01:09:23.52)
Interesting. Well, this has been an awesome conversation. Thank you so much for just going into so much depth here. love, honestly, I love that your tips debunked certain things that get thrown around all the time, but then also talked about things that I don't think a lot of people really take into effect. So thank you so much. Before we talk about where people can find you and to get into your world and into the program that you,
As of recording today, as of recording, you just launched it today, yeah? Yes,
Irina Macare (01:09:58.616)
My new program called From Stress to Sleep, and it's basically addressing exactly what we were discussing because many high professionals, go, they're in go, go, go, go mode. And they're always like in, this hypervigilant state because it's like meetings and problems and always. And by the time they close the work and go to bed, their nervous system doesn't, didn't catch up. So they're wired and tired. So I've created a framework that helps them.
It's a three week program. So each week we are focusing on one pillar of the framework. The framework is regulate, transition and release. So addresses different parts of the day and shows you how to, it gives you the tools to implement to release some of that, to regulate some of that nervous system throughout the day so that you don't carry it with you at night.
to create a transition that it's workable for you and for your lifestyle and for yourself. And the release is like allowing and not allowing and letting go in bed when things are popping up.
Tansy Rodgers (01:11:07.95)
Mmm, yeah, awesome.
Irina Macare (01:11:09.55)
everything and you have time like each week you have time to practice what we are learning. Yeah, starts today, which is like March 9th. We are like card open today and we actually start on April 1st.
Tansy Rodgers (01:11:26.68)
Okay, awesome, awesome. Well, in a moment, we're gonna talk about where to find all of these links and to learn more information. But before we do, let's do a few rapid fires because I like to get real and I wanna know the things you do in regards to, or some of the places maybe you struggle in regards to this conversation today. So are you ready, Irina?
Irina Macare (01:11:50.114)
Yes, before we do that, like, do what I say, not what I do.
Tansy Rodgers (01:11:55.598)
Oh, I think it's gonna be amazing. I think you're gonna be great. All right, all right. So first question. What is your biggest personal green flag that tells you that you're regulating well these days that you know works well for you?
Irina Macare (01:12:14.702)
I guess it's I'm able to sleep throughout the night.
My nervous system is so sensitive that even like some exciting news can tip me off. So I constantly have to practice all these tools and whenever I'm slacking, I still wake up in the middle of the night. it's the thing with sleep, it's not, it's like weight loss. Once you achieved it, you have to do the work to maintain it. So yeah.
Tansy Rodgers (01:12:44.246)
Yeah, awesome. Number two, what is one sleep rule that you would love to throw out in the trash forever? Like you're so tired of hearing about it.
Irina Macare (01:12:54.678)
Everybody should go to bed at the same time, like 10 p.m. Don't stalk me with that. He did what? recently. Yeah. You go at the time that it's in sync with your circadian rhythm and with your chronotype.
Tansy Rodgers (01:12:58.51)
That is a good one, yes.
Tansy Rodgers (01:13:10.4)
You know, so since you just said that, can I ask just like a little follow up question with that? How do you know or how do you discover what your chronotype is or what your ideal time for bed is?
Irina Macare (01:13:22.72)
There is a questionnaire called the evening morningness questionnaire and you can find it online and it's free. And that's also used in clinical practice by some medical providers. But a lot of people, they know, for example, if you go on vacation and you don't have a schedule and you're not forced and you're not in front of your screen the whole time, when do you go to bed and when do you sleep? What's your sleep schedule in vacation?
That's considering that you're not like late night partying and drinking and stuff like that. So we, many people know them tendency, but many people get surprised thinking they're a night owl. After they do the questionnaires and we are like, when I start asking question, they realize, I'm not a night owl. I'm like, I'm mid morning or stuff like that. So.
Our lifestyle shifts our circadian rhythm, but our biology, so our chronotype is dictated by gene. There are some genes where they're saying, where they're telling when, when to sleep, like in the day, when is the sleep window, when should be awake and when should be asleep. So.
Tansy Rodgers (01:14:44.855)
I love that.
Irina Macare (01:14:46.412)
Yeah. And to shift your circadian rhythm, because they're like the delayed sleep phase. This is like a sleep disorder where your sleep time, it's very late. It can be like 2 AM, 3 AM. And for extreme ones can be 4 or 5 AM. And for those people, I'm so sorry for them, but they have to constantly use light exposure and melatonin. And the thing is like as soon as stop, they're
their sleep goes back to their natural tendency. And I like to compare that with like driving a car. Like you steer the wheel and the car goes where you want. And as soon as you take your hands from the wheel, the wheel goes back to the set point. So it's the chronotype is your sleep set point and it's dictated by some genes.
Tansy Rodgers (01:15:32.654)
That's so interesting. And I think I'm gonna find that link and link that down in the show notes as well because for that questionnaire, because I think that that'll be really helpful for a lot of people. Yeah, okay. That'd be great. Thank you. All right, final question. If your nervous system could leave a little sticky note of advice on your pillow at night, what would it say to you, Irina? I love that.
Irina Macare (01:15:42.318)
we can give it to you.
Irina Macare (01:15:55.212)
You're safe.
That's such a hard one. That's such a hard one. And I've been working on that for... So the thing is safety and calm is a state. It's not like a word and you have to train your nervous system to feel it. And you cannot talk yourself into safeness. You have to constantly do things that tells directly your nervous system, not like you're...
prefrontal cortex, like the amygdala, you know, that you are safe. And the best way to feel safe is to be in the present moment. And that's where mindfulness plays such a huge role. And mindfulness is not only mindfulness meditation. Mindfulness is being aware of what's happening and paying attention to what's happening in your body and around you without questioning and without judging. And being present, being in the present moment,
It's how we tell our nervous system that we are safe. But it's good like the post-it on my pillow would be a reminder that I'm safe and to practice the tools that create safety-ness in my nervous system.
Tansy Rodgers (01:17:15.202)
love that. Irina, where can people find you? Where can they get into your world? And I am assuming that one of the big things you have is what you're launching out today, the program, but is there anything else that you're excited about in your work right now?
Irina Macare (01:17:31.352)
Yeah. So the best place to find me is on my website and that's where they will find like what's new. My programs, if I'm launching anything, but something that it's constant is going to be my one-on-one because I truly believe that this kind of work, it has to be personalized and there is value in doing group coaching as well. many people, a personalized approach is very helpful.
Irina Makare.com. It's my website. And you can also find me on Instagram and on LinkedIn. And I'll give you the links. But basically it's Irina underscore Makare on LinkedIn and I don't, on Instagram and I don't remember exactly on LinkedIn.
Tansy Rodgers (01:18:20.398)
That's right. I'll put those links down in the show notes to make it easier for everybody. All right. Well, do you have any last words that you would like to lay on the hearts of the listeners for today?
Irina Macare (01:18:31.982)
Yeah, you don't have to deserve rest. You don't have to earn rest. Earn, it's something that you are entitled to. You don't have to work for rest. So, yeah.
Tansy Rodgers (01:18:49.88)
Thank you so much, Irina, for being here. Thank you for sharing your love, your heart, your wisdom, your knowledge. Thank you for sharing your passion. I appreciate you.
Irina Macare (01:18:58.808)
Thank you so much for having me and for allowing me to speak about everything. I loved our conversation today.
Tansy Rodgers (01:19:07.384)
This episode is such a relief because it pulls sleep out of the you are doing it wrong category and it puts it where it belongs, really right there in your nervous system reality.
If you've been trying harder and harder to sleep, you know, more routines, more rules, more pressures, this conversation is your reminder that sleep isn't something that you can force. It's something that your body allows when it feels safe enough. And burnout has a way of keeping that safety switch flipped the wrong direction. I love Irene's clarity around the basics that actually move the needle. Things like sleep pressure and
rhythm and meal timing and exercise timing and all of the things. It is your entitlement. It is your full stop. So here is one question that I want you to sit with especially if sleep has become a struggle.
What is one small change that you can make that tells your nervous system that you're safe instead of telling it that you better fall asleep right now? What is one small change that you can make? If you want to learn more about Irina's work and her new program to help people move from stress to restful sleep, you'll find the link down in the show notes.
And until next time, keep spreading that beautiful energy you were born to share.
