Ep. #176: Perimenopause, Menopause & Sleep Challenges with Irina Macare
You can be exhausted all day... and still find yourself wide awake at 2 a.m.
If you've ever wondered why sleep suddenly feels harder during midlife, this conversation is for you.
In this episode of The Energy Fix, Tansy sits down with Irina Macare, sleep coach and sleep educator, to unpack one of the most frustrating parts of perimenopause and menopause: sleep disruption.
Together, they explore the hormonal shifts that impact sleep, why so many women find themselves waking during the night, and how stress and nervous system overload often complicate the picture. Irena explains the difference between biological sleep interruptions and conditioned sleep patterns, helping listeners better understand what's actually happening when sleep becomes elusive.
The conversation also dives into practical sleep strategies, common habits that accidentally make insomnia worse, and how neurodivergent individuals may experience unique sleep challenges.
If you've ever found yourself lying awake wondering, "What happened to my sleep?" this episode offers both validation and practical next steps.
Find her first episode, #169, on The Energy Fix Podcast here!
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What We Cover
In this episode, we talk about:
Why sleep changes during perimenopause and menopause
The relationship between hormones and sleep quality
Common sleep disruptions in midlife
Stress and its impact on falling and staying asleep
The difference between biological and conditioned sleep issues
Night sweats versus stress-related awakenings
Sleep habits that can unintentionally make insomnia worse
Neurodivergence and sleep challenges
Bedtime procrastination and delayed sleep
Creating a sleep-supportive environment
Practical strategies for improving sleep during hormonal transitions
Key Takeaways
Hormonal changes can significantly affect sleep quality
Stress is one of the biggest contributors to sleep disruption
Understanding why you're waking up matters
Not all sleep problems have the same root cause
Some common sleep advice can actually backfire
Neurodivergent individuals may need different sleep strategies
Sleep environments play a major role in sleep quality
Small changes often produce meaningful improvements
Better sleep requires addressing both biology and behavior
Midlife sleep challenges are common—and support is available
Favorite Quotes & Sound Bites
A few moments you’ll want to remember:
“What do I do at this change in my life?”
“Sometimes you need your system to feel safe.”
“Stress is that number one thing that typically creates sleep issues.”
“Conditioned arousal versus someone who feels exhausted.”
“I can do whatever I want and relax the way I want.”
“What are some of the biggest things to help improve your sleep?”
Chapters
01:08 – Exploring Perimenopause and Sleep Challenges
03:11 – Understanding Midlife Hormonal Shifts
09:17 – Common Sleep Disruptions in Midlife
19:23 – The Journey to Specializing in Sleep Coaching
24:49 – Stress and Sleep Issues in Midlife
27:10 – Night Sweats vs. Stress-Induced Awakenings
31:17 – Well-Intended Habits That Backfire
39:45 – Neurodivergence and Sleep Techniques
43:04 – Procrastination and Sleep Patterns
55:30 – Practical Sleep Environment Tips
Why This Episode Matters
Because sleep problems during midlife are incredibly common—and often incredibly misunderstood.
It can show up as:
waking up in the middle of the night and struggling to fall back asleep
feeling tired all day but alert at bedtime
racing thoughts when your head finally hits the pillow
increased sensitivity to stress
feeling frustrated because your old sleep habits no longer work
wondering if hormones are the culprit
And the frustrating part?
Many people assume they're doing something wrong.
This episode matters because Irena helps separate myth from reality. She explains why hormonal changes, stress, nervous system patterns, and even well-intentioned sleep habits can all influence your ability to rest.
More importantly, she reminds us that sleep isn't something we force.
It's something we create the conditions for.
About Irina Macare
Irina Macare is a certified sleep coach who helps busy professionals overcome insomnia and rebuild healthy, consistent sleep using simple, science-based tools. Her personalized approach blends tools and coaching practices based in CBT-I — Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia, the gold-standard, evidence-based method for treating chronic insomnia — with techniques from mindfulness, Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, and behavior change coaching.
Irina meets clients where they are, helping them break sleep-disruptive habits, calm the mind, and rebuild confidence in their ability to sleep well — naturally and without medication. Her mission is to make better sleep feel achievable, sustainable, and stress-free.
Links Mentioned In The Show
Website: https://www.irinamacare.com/
LinkedIn: @irinamacare
IG: @irina_macare
beU Crystals:beucrystals.com
Just Thrive Probiotics- Use code TANSY15 to get 15% your order!
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Support Beyond The Episode
If this conversation hit home, and you’re craving deeper support (not just ideas, but real integration):
Join the newsletter →
If this episode helped you feel a little less alone in your sleep struggles, consider sharing it with a friend who's navigating similar changes.
And if you've been fighting your sleep lately, let this be your reminder:
Your body isn't broken.
It may simply be asking for a different kind of support than it needed before.
Follow or subscribe to The Energy Fix for more conversations that help you understand your body, your energy, and your health in a deeper way.
Transcript
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Irina Macare (00:00.206)
Most of the sleep problems are biology ps physiologically and psychologically. If you're working only your behavior issues and psychological issues, but you're still having the underlying hormonal issues, you're still going to have some struggles. The best thing that women can do when they're at perimenopause and menopause and postmenopause is to
Tansy Rodgers (00:27.438)
Yeah.
Tansy Rodgers (00:40.354)
Welcome back to the Energy Fix, a podcast dedicated to helping you balance your energetic body by diving deep into the sweet world of all things health and spirituality. My name's Tansy, and I'm an intuitive Crystal Reiki energy healer, energetic nutrition and holistic health practitioner, and a crystal jewelry designer. It's time to talk all things energy. Let's dive in.
Welcome back to the Energy Fix. Today's episode is a continuation with somebody that you already know and love. Back on episode number 169, I had the honor of interviewing Irina Macare And so she is back. And we are going to be diving even deeper today in concepts all about perimenopause, menopause, and tired but wired concepts when relating to sleep.
Now, Irina is a certified sleep coach who helps busy professionals rebuild consistent sleep and overcome insomnia using evidence-based tools grounded in CBTI, fact, and Circadium biology. She's gonna be really talking in a way that feels realistic, not rigid. And I think that that's important. We wanna keep this conversation very grounded and not like it's a textbook, right?
And so this was what I loved about our last conversation. In our last conversation, we laid some foundational work. Today we're going deeper into the intersection of sleep and midlife hormone shifts, like perimenopause, menopause, night awakenings, tired but wired energy. And what actually helps when your body is not wanting to really shut down come to 3 a.m., etc.
And so again, if you want to hear the foundational conversation that we had, please head on over to episode 169 and catch her in full action right there. All right, Irina. Let's dive into this conversation. Welcome back to the show.
Irina Macare (02:51.822)
Hi Tansy thank you. Thank you so much for inviting me again. I'm really excited to continue our conversation because it was a long one and we didn't cover in even like we just scratched the topic. So I'm excited to be able to dive deeper into this topic that it's very hot these days.
Tansy Rodgers (03:11.648)
Yeah. You know, it's funny. When we got off of the conversation last time, Irina and I were talking and she was like, my gosh, we never even talked about midlife hormonal shifting. And I was like, Yeah, we need to get you back on because this is a hot topic, especially up amongst the people that come into my clinic. I'm sure your clinic. And just in general, I mean, people are wondering, what do I do at this change in my life? So
Let's just get into this. Idrena, let's start with the moment people really live in. Okay. It's 2 or 3 a.m. You're wide awake, you're annoyed, your brain is subtly shifting to each little moment in life that you need to navigate or pursue. What have you found is the most common reason that pattern, that this pattern shows up in midlife and
What do people do in that moment to accidentally make it worse?
Irina Macare (04:16.2)
my god, this is such a loaded question, and there are so many layers and on it. And just the question: why do I wake up at 3 a.m. every night? It's it's a a question that it's not like easy to answer because there can be so many things. And we can start from hormonal changes because like that's the topic of today.
And estrogen, progesterone, and all the hormones that are affected by perimenopause and menopause are directly involved in sleep or indirectly, but but they do affect sleep. There can can be sleep drive issues, there can be circadian rhythm issues, there can be hyperarousal issues, being anxious about sleep and having a lot of stress in your life. There can be medical reasons.
So other other conditions like arrested spec syndrome or even other medical health health issues can cause that. But an a very interesting thing that people should understand that waking up throughout the night is normal. It's very common and normal. And looking at the sleep architecture, there are like some speculation that
Who in the past they were having like a biphasic sleep, meaning they were getting their sleep in two parts. And they were waking up in the middle of the night and doing some like things like praying or like having making love or having some very low-key activities and then going back to sleep. So with with the normal, like with the current lifestyle, like we're expecting to live.
to sleep in one bow for the entire night. So just setting the expectation. Aga another thing, looking at the sleep structure, the sleep, yeah there, and I think we covered that in the in the first episode, but we have three types of sleep, like non-RAM sleep, REM which is so REM sleep and non-RAM sleep. And non-REM sleep has three three types of
Irina Macare (06:39.64)
Cycle. The non REM sleep is a little bit lighter. So we can be awakened more easily. And looking at the sleep architecture throughout the night, the first part of the night we have more non-REM deep sleep. And in the second of part of the night, we have more REM light sleep that is full of dreams. So it's it feels natural.
that we can be awaken easier in the second part of the night. And also because our sleep pressure is being consumed while while we're sleeping. And we we are being awakened by cortisol. So naturally we're the cortisol goes down when the melatonin goes up and when we fall asleep. And one to two hours before we wake up, the cortisol level starts to
increase and once they reach a specific threshold that's when we are awake getting wait well if you have any disruption in the cortisol rhythm and your cortisol starts rising earlier then it's going to be harder to fall back asleep it's going to wake you more often so it's very hard to say do this or that like there can be multiple things and they can be like even combined and as I was a saying
Hormones have like a huge impact. Insulin, we didn't even talk about insulin, like blood blood sugar, like drops and insulin spikes can also cause the cortisol to spike. So, yeah. The and the second part of your question was like, what do we do that it makes it worse, right? Well, first of all, we start looking at the clock and start counting. I woke up again, I have only three, three more hours.
until my alarm starts. So you start spiraling. And with that spiraling, your cortisol increases. So your brain interprets that at a as a problem that needs to be solved. So it activates the sympathetic nervous system, which is your fight and flight, and keeps you awake. So instead of like sleeping, you're actually doing doing yourself a disservice. So looking at the clock, starting worrying, starting spiraling about like what
Irina Macare (09:06.986)
am I'm going to do tomorrow. But that's I think that's the the first thing that people do that's actually the fires.
Tansy Rodgers (09:17.228)
Literally just happened to me the other night. I there was a lot of energetic stuff going on with me. And I was really struggling to fall asleep and then stay asleep. It was just a really restless night in general. And I woke up at like, I don't know what was it, like three in the morning because I was thirsty or something. I can't remember. But I woke up at like three and I laid back down. I I and got a drink of water. I laid back down.
And I'm laying there, I was like, I it was like my eyes were so big. I was wide awake and I'm like, I can't I can't fall for the next two and a half hours, I lay there obsessing about the clock and what time it was and knowing what time I had to wake up. Yeah, I was really tired the next day. It didn't work at all to obsess, by the way.
Irina Macare (10:07.462)
Let me ask you another question. how have you had in the past other nights where you didn't sleep because you had a party or you had an event or you were too excited by an event the next day? Were you able to function the next day?
Tansy Rodgers (10:24.556)
Yes, because I was excited about what was going on.
Irina Macare (10:28.47)
Right. So the mind reframe. It's not that you've you haven't done that in the past. Like you've done and you're capable of being efficient and effective even with little sleep. So you if you can tell that to yourself is like even if I'm not sleeping, I'm going to be okay tomorrow, might help with reducing that hyperarousal state and help you relax. And the other thing is like it
You can reframe resting as a positive thing. Instead of, I'm awake and I'm lying in bed, you can think resting is still beneficial because if you're lying away lying down and you're calm, maybe you can do some breathing, maybe you listen to a book or a podcast, something that it's relaxing, your heart rate goes down, your cortisol levels go down, which is much better than stressing and worrying. So
This is what like one thing a r a reframe that you can do to help you in the moment.
Tansy Rodgers (11:32.578)
That's a really great point because you're right. Like I never even thought about that. There's many times that is that that has happened in the past. And when I wake up, I'm I'm excited about what's going on. Right. Or maybe I'm nervous about the day and whatever the event is, but there's still a level of excitement and I feel energized and awake. So that's a really great idea about the reframe.
Irina Macare (11:55.854)
And another I'll give you another tool that you can do when you're spiraling. It's an exercise called and then what. So when some some worry comes, then you ask yourself, okay, so tomorrow it's going to be disaster. It's going to be very bad. And then what? What's going to happen? So you go down into the the train of thought and you realize that it's not the end of the world.
If even if all the worst case scenario happens, you're going to survive. So in many cases that could help again to reduce that state of arousal. So yeah, I'm going to screw up the if you have a podcast interview and then what? I'm going to embarrass myself and then what? I'm going to feel terrible and then what?
Yeah, and then I go go again with my life and yeah. See it's like this exercise helps you to figure out that it's not the end of the world and because w when we are in the dark playing and our mind starts racing, every every small thing becomes a monumental thing and we have to supervise. So sometimes this exercise helps you realize that what you are worrying, it's not doesn't have such a big impact than you are thinking in the moment.
Tansy Rodgers (13:23.724)
Yeah, that's so interesting. Well, if we're talking about menopause specifically, okay. Well, I mean, I guess technically perimenopause and menopause are different technically and postmenopause, but let's just kind of lump it all into one for right now. Okay. And let's talk about that specifically. What do you find as the top three patterns that for for this age group?
That you see the most happening? Maybe it's trouble falling asleep or early waking or whatever you see. But like what are the three most common things you see?
Irina Macare (14:01.364)
It's mostly it's waking up at in the middle of the night. That's that's the most frequent one. And there can be multiple reasons. And when it comes to perimenopause and menopause is the hot flashes and people waking up in the middle of the night sweating and then it's not the awakening itself, it's then the frustration that comes after that. because what you can do, you cannot control your form.
Or maybe you can if you're doing hormonal replacement therapy, you can i influence that somehow. But what you can do on the spot is like you cannot control the hot splashes. You can go and change, have like some pajamas, maybe have some sheets that are cooler, have some water with that it's cold that can help you like normalize a little bit the temperature. But then the spiraling. So often we will go back to the spiraling because that's
That's the main problem of it's not like the awakening itself, it's what you how you re react to the that awakening. And often people are getting frustrated or starting to worry. So stopping that spiraling, I think it's the the best you can do in the spot after you you take care of the the underlying cause, like the hot flashes.
The other thing that a lot of people got misdiagnosed is obstructive sleep apnea. So the thing is with perimenopause, with the decline in estrogen and progesterone, there more women are experiencing obstructive sleep apnea and there are underdiagnosed because it behaves different than in men. And for example, it can look like
More insomnia, more fatigue, more mood changes, more morning headaches. So you see all those symptoms can be caused by some other hormonal changes and can be dismissed. But basically what happened is that what estrogen and progesterone so estrogen is involved in muscle elasticity and when you lose it, your muscles are more flabby and they collapse and they can obstruct
Irina Macare (16:20.128)
the airwaves on your neck and on the respiratory tract. Also the fat, when you are gaining weight in menopause like in paramenopause and menopause, the distribution changes. Like you get it to the waist, to the hip, and to the torso. And that can also put more weight on your airways. Estrogen is involved in upper respiratory, progesterone as well. And progesterone also has a role of natural sedation.
It's like your natural value. So with that being reduced like the the level reduce, like you're more anxious, even wake up more frequent. And also it
Tansy Rodgers (17:07.861)
And you said that was progesterone.
Irina Macare (17:09.879)
So estro estrogen and progester. Progesterone is a the natural sedative. So even if it is not like necessary something that it's obstructing, it can influence the restoration in sleep. So it manifests differently than what we are used to. So it's less snoring and these symptoms are
Tansy Rodgers (17:15.309)
Yeah, yeah.
Irina Macare (17:39.18)
They are thought to be caused by something else. So women are not being tested for that. And because of that, they struggle and they still have symptoms no matter what they do. So if I remember correctly, post-menopause, there's three to four times more of women diagnosed with obstructive, not necessarily diagnosed, but getting diagnosed, getting obstructive symptoms. Before menopause,
The ratio is more like in men. Men have more drugs. And as the women get to carry menopause and menopause, the ratio is almost and it's like three to four times more than previously two.
Tansy Rodgers (18:21.666)
Wow. Wow. That's insane. That is really crazy. So there's a lot of people that get this misdiagnosis and then they're treating it in other forms when in reality. So so what specifically are some of the therapies or the things that people can do for the obstructive sleep apnea?
Irina Macare (18:43.864)
To be to be sure that you have obstructive sleep apnea, you need to do a sleep study. So you need to get to be referred to a sleep clinic where you go into the lab and sleep there. And that's the only way you can be diagnosed with obstructive sleep apnea. Then once you have a diagnose, then there can be from multiple ways of addressing it from CPAP to
Tansy Rodgers (19:01.75)
Wow.
Irina Macare (19:11.662)
I mean, even like if you're doing hor hormone replacement therapy can help. Like it the it there it doesn't guarantee you that it will fix it completely, but it can help.
Tansy Rodgers (19:23.682)
Well, Irina, before we go further, I want to just talk a little bit about you and how you've ended up specializing in insomnia. How have you gotten so passionate about sleep and insomnia and the work you're currently doing?
Irina Macare (19:38.51)
So I shared a little bit of my story in the previous episode and I'm trying to be successful so we don't take too much time, but my background, like I was an IT engineer for sixteen years and the work it's it's really hard. The pressure was really hard that the hard deadline. So I start like I had I burned out like three times and with burnout and with stress it comes sleep problem. Like sleep is the first thing that falls.
when before like the body starts falling, you know, and the hormones and all the things. So I've been struggling with sleep since probably two thousand eleven. and it took me years until I figure out like what's going on and I've tried like so many things. In the beginning like I was just dealing with the sleep deprivation as everybody's doing with more coffee, with willpower and with with catching up and sleep on weekends.
But at some point it got so, so bad that I fell asleep on the wheel and I got like into a car car crash. Thankfully it wasn't too too bad. So I was safe and no injury, but it was like a wake up goal for me, like literally and metaphorically. And that's when I started like diving deeper into understanding like what can I do.
Because I couldn't remove stress away from my life. Stress is the of the only constant that we have. But so I've learned more about sleep and how stress impacts sleep and insomnia. And at some point when I was like just set up with the IT and I wanted to give back and to help people because to people around me because I was so excited. I was sharing a lot of the things that I've learned and was experimenting and people around me
do things that I was suggesting. And they start seeing results and that feeling that you have when you're helping someone it's like something that I cannot describe. It's it's like a drug, you know. And when I was like just set up with with being an IT engineer writing code and I wanted to make a meaning in this life and helping others, I decided to dive into coaching and
Irina Macare (21:58.542)
Actually I didn't in initially thinking that I'm going to be a sleep coach. It was just a coincidence that I just bumped into a certification for sleep coaching from a very famous company that I knew about. And that's how I just ended up into the sleep world.
Tansy Rodgers (22:15.404)
Was it coincidence? No. We know that, right?
Irina Macare (22:18.88)
I know. I think the stars alone is like sync I I really believe in synchronicity and things that happening to you for a reason. But honestly, like once you dive into the steep world, it's fascinating because it combines biology, psychology, and human behaviors. And I've always been fascinated by all three of them. And I love understanding the science behind it. Then like
has as I've been saying, a lot of the work and a lot of the issues with insomnia, it's your thoughts and your relationship with with sleep and then how you react to things that are happening in your life. Stress. Like stress is the reason why a lot of people start having sleep problem, but then their behaviors trying to compensate for that is what perpetuates their insomnia.
So we have to look at how we can break those behavior, how we can break those associations. So you see how how interesting it is, like, I don't know. I find it fascinating.
Tansy Rodgers (23:21.984)
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Emotionally, energetically, physically, and in your nervous system so you can move through life with more clarity and less internal noise. People book these when they're feeling stuck, overloaded, anxious, emotionally heavy, or like their energy isn't fully theirs anymore. And we work with that. We work with what's present, clear what's been lingering, and help you come back to center in a way that feels grounded and real.
If you want to book a session or you want to simply know more, you can head on over to tansyrogers.com or jump down into the show notes and click the link that will take you directly to those services. And if you're not sure which session is the right fit, send me a message. I'll help you choose. I'll help to guide you in the right direction. All right, let's jump back into this episode. Yeah, you know, you just said something that
maybe really wonder. Now, midlife, perimenopause, menopause, hormone shifting, all of these things changing. No, we know stress obviously can happen at any point in life, right? But like midlifetime is so often associated with stress imbalances because of these hormonal influ fluctuations and issues with cortisol, right? And so, you know, you just talked about how stress is that number one thing that typically creates
the sleep issues in the first place, is do you think that maybe that is why? Well, I should say just why, part of why midlife really shows an increase in sleep issues because of this exact reason.
Irina Macare (25:33.998)
Absolutely. You nailed it. And people, women, when they're reaching this age, there are a lot of things changing in their life. They, they, their kids, they're starting to go to school and they're empty nested. They reach to a point in their career where there might be like extra layers of care. There might be taking the role of caregiver when their parents start having like health issues and they have to take care of them.
They are having like identity shifts. And so besides all the physiological things that they deal with, and besides like the implication of like hormonal regulation affect your emotional state, there are also all this psychological things that are happening in our your life. So there is no wonder that you wake up in the middle of the night and you start spiraling, you know? You have the physiological, the biological, and the psychological.
that add up and a vast majority of our clients are they're women in this age bracket.
Tansy Rodgers (26:41.6)
Yeah. Yeah. Wow. You know, you've talked a lot here so far about some of the main things that really impact sleep when it comes to perimetopause and menopause. But I wanna, I'm curious, I want to ask something specifically about biology versus psychology, right? When it comes to something that I hear about all the time, that so many women say to me, like, I don't even know how to navigate this. And that is.
Night sweats and hot flashes. So can we talk about that? Like, what's the difference between a wake up that's really caused by heat and something more biological versus a wake up that's caused by stress chemistry? Like what is, is there a big difference in how it impacts that person's sleep and how they can get back to sleep? And yeah, let's just talk about that.
Irina Macare (27:39.06)
You want to address the the cause that wakes you up. So if it is a biological thing, so you want to help yourself if it's possible to prevent that from happening, right? If it is hormonal imbalance, then maybe you work with a doctor to help you with hormonal replacement therapy. But as I was saying earlier, the most important thing is like how how do you react to being awake in the middle of the night? So
Insomnia, there is a model in the literature that describes how insomnia evolves. So it's called a 3P model. So the first P is the predisposition. So there are some people who are more predisposed to be anxious, to have a to have a light sleep, and like maybe in this case, like your bio your biology is make you more predisposed to frequent awakening.
Then there is the precipitation. Maybe there is an event that makes wake makes sleep harder. So let's say your kid is going to to school and to college and you're worrying, right? or you have a divorce or you have a wedding or you have like an event that is tipping you off from like maybe you are on the edge of your stress and you are controlling it and something tips you off.
Right. So you're seeing trauma. But then once that event goes away, the insomnia is being fed by the behaviors that you're doing after that. And and this is the perpetuation, the therapy. So some people they're starting to drink alcohol to sedate them, or get melatonin to sleep, or actually getting sleepy sleep meds, right?
And then that can cause dependent dependency and tolerance, or they can go to bed earlier trying to like extend the time they're in bed, maybe they will sleep more. So all these behaviors, they're actually treating the insomnia. They're creating a problem and our nervous system when it the way it's wired is like when you have a problem, you have to fix it. And that means it there is a danger.
Irina Macare (30:02.104)
So it keeps you in a hyper a hypervigilant state or in hyper-arrow state. And that that actually prevents you to speak because you have to be in a in in a parasympathetic nervous system like the rest and digest, like the and restore state. So by being in a hyper state, hyper-vigilant state, that's actually what makes it worse.
And then there is another thing that happens, like once you start doing all the things, your brain starts associating being in bed with being awake, with being frustrated. And it creates like a conditioned arousal. Only thinking about bed, only being in bed wakes you up. And I I can say that easily if you have a conditioned arousal is like if you're having no problem sleeping when you go on vacation, when you're
in another room on the couch and as soon as you go to bed you're wide awake. So that's that's a one side of conditioned arousal. And then how do you refer to to your thoughts about being away, you know, and because that can create more anxiety.
Tansy Rodgers (31:17.334)
What have you seen has been one of the most common well intended habits that you see midlife women doing that actually backfires i in regards to some of the stuff that you're talking about?
Irina Macare (31:30.63)
initially I wanted to say like trying more, but there are I think like the the the easier one is like trying like a glass of wine in the evening.
Tansy Rodgers (31:40.046)
That's exactly what I was thinking that it probably was.
Irina Macare (31:42.828)
Is because yeah the wine it helps you get the edge, it helps you sedate you and you feel like you're falling asleep, but it backfires massively because as soon as the alcohol is being metabolized, it it it it disrupts your sleep, it creates some byproducts that wakes you up, it it affects your ramp sleep, it has so many side effects that makes your sleep worse. So
Yeah, I think alcohol is the easier and the the the wine, the gloss of wine, which feels like so innocent. I think that's the the most overused and the that backfires the most.
Tansy Rodgers (32:24.866)
Yeah. The sugar content in the wine itself can really cause that instability in your insulin and your blood sugar.
Irina Macare (32:35.106)
Or if you have a margarita or
Tansy Rodgers (32:36.842)
Yeah, any of that. Yeah. Wow. You talked about the conditioned arousal. Yeah. All right. And so I'm assuming that there is a difference between conditioned arousal versus someone who feels exhausted all day but then gets that second wind at night, right? Like, is there is there number one, is there a difference there?
Irina Macare (32:38.989)
Yeah.
Tansy Rodgers (33:00.618)
And number two, okay. So there is what is actually going on when somebody gets the second win naturally, not a condition pattern. No
Irina Macare (33:09.304)
So the the second wind is part of the circadium rhythm is what is giving you the second wind and usually not everybody experience that, but usually it happens one to two hours before sleep. And if you're looking so the circadian rhythm sends signal of when to be awake and when to be asleep. And sends signals of alertness throughout the day and to sleep throughout the night. So melatonin is
being controlled by circadian rhythm and when circadian rhythm says like it's time to sleep then it starts producing melatonin and when we have to s be awake it's two four years all but it's not like linear and if you want like I can send you an image that you can link in the show notes on how this this shows but basically in in the afternoon we have a dip.
Which is natural. And we always say that it's like, it's the lunch is the food that I I ate on at lunch. But it's not only that, it's mostly a dip in alertness caused by circadium rhythm. And the same as we have a dip in the alertness after lunch, we have a peak of alertness in the evening, and that's what causes the second win. And you get to have like
regardless if you're in bed or if you're downstairs or if you're in a different case. And evolutionally it it was we we assume that it was to feel prepare for for the night and give you like that extra push to put everything in order and to check for predators when they're starting to come because like that's around like when they wake up and start hunting. So
Yeah, that's that's what we are thinking that might be quite.
Irina Macare (35:09.806)
It's it's not conditioned. Conditional is all about when when you repeat something multiple times and your brain associates like Pavlov dog. Pavlov dog experiments. Like Pavlov was a guy who noticed that he was feeding his dog and before feeding the dog, like rang a bell. And at some point we realize that just ringing the bell the dog starts salivating because it was anticipating the food.
So that's the conditioning. And we are doing a lot of conditioning in our life without thinking because like the brain likes to conserve energy and to be efficient. And when it sees pattern, then it makes associations so it consumes less energy. And those associations can be positive and those can be negative. And in this case, they have like a negative effect, but the brain doesn't know. It just associates. So if you're
Eating in bed. And if you're doing activities in bed that are you're doing when you are awake, then your brain associates bed with wakefulness. That's why, like one of the number one advice from cognitive behavior therapy for insomnia is like bed is only for sleep and sex. That's it. You don't do anything in bed. You don't check your mail, you don't answer text, you don't shop or anything else. So you want to associate bed with wakeful with with sleep.
And part of the cognitive behavior therapy ther therapies is called stimulus control and it's exactly this their advice like if you are awake for around like fifty minutes, get out of the bed, do some relaxing activities, and only when you feel sleepy, go back to bed.
Tansy Rodgers (36:56.182)
And so would that be the best way to really get out of that pattern of feeling that wiredness by the or the second wind, I should say, by the evening to start to shift and change that spike? Or are there other things that they can do?
Irina Macare (37:17.646)
Hesitating because based on cognitive behavior therapy for insomnia, that's the answer is yes. But based on our experience and the new wave of acceptance and community therapy for insomnia, we're changing a little bit the advice, but that's depending on the person, like how that the person relates to getting out of the bed. And there so this getting out of the bed is one of the therapies that people are in.
not compliant with, they're fighting against. And that's when CBTI backfires. So depending on the person in front of me, I can have like different strategies to help them relax. As part of the act for insomnia is diffusing yourself from those those thoughts and making space and not letting those thoughts to consume you. And you can do that by
imagining some things that relaxes you, doing some breathing exercises, some somatic practices that can help you shift into sim a parasympathetic nervous system. So there are different tools and but it's it's hard to give like a generalized
advice here. So try try getting out of the bed first. And if that works, continue doing it. If if that feels something that you cannot do, maybe for me personally, I like to listen audiobooks. So once I put my headsets on, then I don't check the clock on my phone. I just turn on the the audiobook and help me distract myself from the thoughts and help me put like in a relaxed state in
In in an hour, I'm usually falling back asleep. So for some people, can be a meditation for s but what we haven't discussed here is sleep effort. So the intention behind what you what you're doing matters because if you're doing things trying to fall asleep, then we are getting back into the hyper-arousal because sleep effort makes you.
Irina Macare (39:30.296)
hyperaroused. So it backfires. So if you're doing it just trying to rest and feel better and as a side effect is falling asleep, that's that's what we are trying to achieve.
Tansy Rodgers (39:45.623)
And so I'm curious, because as you were talking, you talked about the overstimulation and the arousal, and how for you, the audiobook actually helps to calm the thoughts down. All I could think about was all of my beautiful neurodivergent friends out there, especially ADHD neurodivergent friends who have all of that stimulation going.
My my Aud and my autistic friends who get easily overstimulated and have the ruminating thoughts. And so do you see a difference, especially in later life undiagnosed or or neurodivergent folks, that this is a really great technique to help decrease the thoughts and the stimulation by actually giving yourself a little stimulation.
By listening to an audiobook or by reading a book in general.
Irina Macare (40:45.364)
Yeah, and and I don't think it's only for people and middle age, but like even for teenagers, they're they're being observed that they can focus better when they have like the TV in the background. The neurodivergent mind it's so different than that you have to adapt. I have to adapt most of my tools when I'm working with neurodivergent person. And I'm neurodivergent, I have ADHD. I know firsthanded how that.
works and like for example I have one client that I'm working with right now and he told me it's like you listen I understand everything that you're saying like I understand the mindfulness and meditation they're so beneficial but like as soon as I start meditating like in two minutes I'm getting pissed because like I cannot just sit there. Right. So for these people I'm trying to find more
Mind to use practices of mindfulness in a more active way, like mindful eating, mindful walking, using more tactile things, more like connecting with the senses versus just sitting still, especially with the hyper hyperactive people. Sitting still, it's it's a nightmare for them. So we we change things in a way that works with your brain.
And that's that's the the the the beauty of one-on-one coaching, because even in the neurodivergent world, we there is a spectrum and there are sensitivities. And for someone with auditory sensitivity, maybe listening to a book or s music can be hyper stimulating, but maybe something like touch and those weight blankets can be soothing.
So yeah, it especially working with neurodivergent people, it's very hard to generalize. It's easier to give like personalized advice. But very good point. W often tools are that some the results of some tools are contraintuitive of what we are thinking.
Tansy Rodgers (43:04.278)
Yeah, yeah. And you know, I'm just gonna especially since I know that we have a lot of neurodivergent listeners, I'm just gonna share this from my own side and what I have found to be really helpful, two main things, especially with me now being in perimenopause age and things shifting and me having to find new patterns, having routine that helps me with my brain getting
Into that routine, that pattern that I know what's coming. So I sit down, I get my tea. I know as soon as I get my tea, my brain automatically starts to shift. It says, it's time to calm, it's time to relax. And then I get my book and I sit there and the book is stimulating to my brain. I'm on adventures. I'm so excited. But what it's really doing is it's calming down some of the stimulation from my ruminating thoughts. And it's also making me excited.
Which is calming my anxiety and bringing me back down. And so I have found that if I can get my brain into a place where I feel lighter, I feel happier, regardless if it's more stimulation, I actually feel ready for sleep because I'm into that restful place now.
Irina Macare (44:19.53)
Yeah. And this is a very good point what you're making because and back to the the idea that some some things might be contraintuitive of what we are teaching. In my personal case, for me, listening to an audiobook in in bed actually helped me deal with revenge band time procrastination. Because I often procrastinated bad because
I was first I was afraid of the next day. I didn't want to start the next day. Second, I didn't have enough time in my day to take care of myself. So I felt like the the evening was the only time when I did something interesting and caring. But because I loved listening my books, I was actually excited for going into bed. And once I was, as you were saying, like my hyper s stimulation.
where down relie relieved not relieved showed revealed revealed that senseness of tired tiredness and sleepiness that was masked by the hyper stimulation. So once I was able to I'm able to reduce that hyper stimulation, I'm actually feeling tired and falling asleep. And I use a the Audible app and I put it on 15 minutes timer. So in 50 minutes it stops. Often
I fall asleep in 10 minutes because the next day when I'm resuming my book, I'm like, I don't remember this. So do what works for you, even if it is against the norms. But understand that is it stimulating you in the good way, or is it stimulating you that you cannot stop and continuing doing things?
Tansy Rodgers (46:11.576)
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And so I'm so glad you brought that up. The procrastination, because I have I, and I'm saying this from a personal place, I have found either that are my favorite time because now all of a sudden I'm on nobody else's time clock. It is just me. I can do whatever I want and I can relax the way that I want to relax. And I don't, you know, sometimes I'm like, I don't want to go to bed because this is my favorite time of the night, even when I'm tired. So can we talk?
Irina Macare (47:48.738)
Like
Tansy Rodgers (48:09.07)
Talk about when that procrastination comes up, especially for those who are in midlife and how to really move through that. When now we're battling hormonal stuff. And if we don't listen to some of that hormonal stuff that's shifting and give it what's what it needs, now we may be actually kind of sabotaging ourselves.
Irina Macare (48:32.83)
There is one thing that I forgot to mention and you pointed that out very well because the our symptoms can get worse in midlife as we are getting perimenopause and menopause because ADHD is ADHD symptoms are impacted by estrogen. Estrogen has a huge role in self-regulation and the dopamine circuits. So with the lowering of estrogen,
Women see like they they get diagnosed more because all the systems that have used to cope and to function in their entire life, they don't they don't work anymore. And they're like desperate. So they usually go to therapist for depression, for other issues, and they discover that they have ADHD. Or they go with their kids to being diagnosed and there's like
But I have all this this symptoms and then they realize they they have ADHD. So AD ADHD in midlight it's way worse. So I want to acknowledge that. And your question, sir.
Tansy Rodgers (49:41.326)
That's right. That's right. My question was, you know, with this procrastination, like how do we how do we get to that point where we're giving ourselves what we need, but also not overstepping that boundary and setting us up for failure?
Irina Macare (49:58.252)
hard one but I feel the key to everything it's awareness understanding how things are impacting you and what's the underlying thing that it's driving you to do like let's like let's take phone scrolling right why are you scrolling what's what was like the the feeling behind it that made you reach for the phone is it boredom
Is it you want to self-soothe by like shopping? Or is it like lack of connection and you want to connect with other people? So there are some needs that are not met throughout the day and which lead to that feeling of lacking. And first of all, the awareness, like what are you lacking? What's what's your behavior trying to compensate for is the first step. But
I think like the key is to have
Throughout the day to to to self-care, either enjoying your coffee, like taking the time to enjoy your coffee instead of having on the go, being present like with all your senses and tasting it, feeling the the warmth or whatever if it is coffee that you you like. Having a few breaks throughout the day for white space to get
Tell yourself is like I'm doing something for myself so that in the evening you're not so depleted. And that comes also with nervous system regulation. You're laughing. I am laughing.
Tansy Rodgers (51:40.174)
Because it's so true. I know. It's so, so true. I mean, that when you just said about giving yourself white space throughout the day, you there are so many times that I've been going all day long, feeling like a rock star, getting so many things done, and I feel great about it. And then I hit the evening, and I'm like, my brain is so wired. I am so exhausted.
And I'm actually so exhausted that now I can't sleep.
Irina Macare (52:13.058)
Yes. It's the wired entire ceiling. And it's like you were on the go, go, go the entire day. And often you are tapping into your sympathetic nervous system to have the adrenaline and to to keep you moving. And while that's not a bad thing to help like to to use a little bit of adrenaline to keep you going, you're not switching be between like we are not built to be on the entire day.
You should have like small breaks in between. And I like to to use a metaphor to compare yourself with a pressure cooker. And throughout the day, like you accumulate stress that you push up, or like feelings that you push push down. Sorry, you push down, feelings that you push down. I'll deal with them later. Or like I don't have to react this way when some jerk makes a comment in a meeting. Or you have to self-regulate so much and you're not doing it on the spot. You're
pushing them for later, stress, using adrenaline to keep going, that your your brain and your body has a hard time switching between these two branches. And you're more on into the sympathetic state in the fight or flight. And it takes longer to switch back. So if you're doing like small breaks throughout the day, 30 min 30 seconds, 60 seconds, but more often,
you're creating like the neuroplasticity in your nervous system to be able to like switch back and forth, back and forth. And then like in the evening, it's easier to switch back into like a relaxed state. So the pressure cooker, like at night, if you're like turning off the lead at night, like everything builds up. And then the problem is like the first time when it's silent and you're not stimulated,
It's when you're going into bed, then that's where all those things that you push down bubbles up. Emotions. It's not only like emotion thoughts. So it you start ruminating. And you said something else that and the other thing is that even if you have breaks throughout the day, often we we feel uncomfortable without doing anything, either from an identity thing that there's so many things that I have to do that I cannot afford.
Irina Macare (54:37.826)
To take a break, or it feels uncomfortable, like you're, you know, it's like, I cannot just stand still. You're reaching for the phone, you're putting the headsets to listen to podcasts. There is no empty space. There is no white space. So while taking deliberately white spaces, and you can start with 30 seconds, you don't have to do like five minutes, helps you be uncomfortable with the with the be comfortable with the uncomfortable, right?
We we lost the ability to be uncomfortable nowadays. We we're looking for shortcuts, we're looking for optimization, that we don't know how to be uncomfortable. And we're so stimulated that just standing still feels uncomfortable. So I think like I messed up like the answer but
Tansy Rodgers (55:30.408)
No, no, that's perfect. That's perfect. And so with all of this conversation around the behavioral part, which I love, I think that that is the crux and the root of all of this. But outside of that, I wanna, I wanna get, I wanna break it down here in a moment even further. But before we do, let's talk about some general practical environment question or environment tips. And so
I'm curious if we're talking about like the temperature, the light, the timing, foods, like all of those kind of things, what are some of your biggest tips on more of a general perspective?
Irina Macare (56:09.932)
Okay. Yeah. And these are like the general advice that you will hear everywhere. And especially you you you pointed something very well, the temperature. So we need to have like a bedroom that it's cool and like sixty eight, sixty seven, if you can can h hold it so cool.
But our body temperature needs to go down in order to fall asleep. And a cool environment helps us with sleep. So that would be like a general thing that you should do it regardless. And especially for the hot flashes, you know, like having a cold, like a a bottle of water with ice that when like in the middle of the night it's still cold to help with the the the hot flashes, you know. And even like as I was saying, a pair of pajamas that you change.
Because like some women they wake up sweat like dren drenched, you know? So you don't want to go in the same clothes in the bed, even like changing the sheets. So having this kind of things beside you and to prepare so that once the hot flashes pass is like you can go back to sleep.
When it comes to alcohol, like if you want to have your glass of wine, do it at least two to three hours before because it has enough time for it gives you enough time for your body to process the alcohol and it's has a less impact on your sleep. Yes, you are not going to use that that sedation to fall asleep, but if drinking wine it's a habit that you don't want to break and you don't want to affect your sleep, drink it earlier.
Same with food, at least three hours before bed. And and here it it it's a little bit tricky because like if you have any metabolic condition that you have like drops in blood sugar, maybe you can have a snack just before like half an hour before bed so that it keeps your blood sugar like constant with some protein and unprocessed carb. So
Irina Macare (58:15.668)
The reason behind the three hours before the dinner before bed is that when you eat, for digestion to happen, like a lot of the blood has to be directed to your organs, and that means your core body temperature will increase. So we I just said that your core body temperature has to go down in order to sleep, and that will make things worse. And even if you fall asleep with an empty belly.
Your digestion will be slower than on day today, like during the day. Your food will take longer to be processed, so it will stay longer into your intestines, will create like more gases. So not a good idea. There are multiple reasons for this advice. And also try to avoid like heavy meals, spicy food, this kind of stuff. So food, water.
comes to water, this is very tricky because we want to be hydrated. And I know like the problem with water is we are busy throughout the day and we forget to drink water. At night we remember because we are so dehydrated that we are thirsty and we want to be like the good girl, the good student and to drink water to compensate because we have to drink like half a gallon of water or whatever. But then you wake up to pee. So
Another thing to disrupt your sleep. Well, try to drink your water throughout the day, sipping it, and stop drinking water.
Enough time before bed so that it doesn't cause too many awakenings. And I'm not saying like a specific time because there for some people can be half an hour, for some people can be three hours, like if if they drink water in half an hour, they go to bed to to s to to pee, you know. So it depends, know your body, how your body handle liquids to realize when to stop drinking.
Tansy Rodgers (01:00:17.176)
And you know, I want to add on too, because as you were talking about the food aspect, you know, it high amounts of sugar, high amounts of carbs too late at night also spikes well and alcohol too, also spikes your your body temperature because your body uses that fuel and it becomes more heated. So if you're already dealing with f hot flashes or night sweats and then your emotional eating in the evening.
And you're eating too close and you're eating all these carbs or drinking the alcohol or getting all this sugar in. my goodness. Yeah. Yeah, that can really spike.
Irina Macare (01:00:56.662)
And you know, and like people would say, okay, so you're taking away all these good things that I'm doing in the evening, and what are you expecting me to do in the evening, right? So find activities that are you enjoy. because I'm not going to tell you stop scrolling and start meditating. You're hating meditation anyway. You're not going to do that. What brings you joy? What what do you enjoy doing that it's not stimulating?
And it's not affecting your body. So for example, I like to do Sudoku. Or I like to colour. Or I like to cuddle with my dog. Even TV, it's fine as long as you st if you can stop in time. And you're not like watching action movies, horror movies, or something that you cannot stop and you're binging. So even watching TV, that it's not stimulating. It's better than
emotional eating or I don't know what else. But don't try to replace these activities with things that you should. So when you're saying I should do that, that's a big, big, big sign that you don't necessarily enjoy it. And it's a very likely that you are not going to do it for long term. Maybe you're going to do it for a day or two, a week while you are still using willpower, but once you're you cannot build a routine with that. Maybe there are people who can that they have like
a wheel of iron, but for general people find something that you enjoy. Maybe it's a hot bath, maybe it's foam rolling, maybe it's getting out for a walk.
Tansy Rodgers (01:02:39.224)
So as we're finishing up this conversation, Irina, I would love to just kind of sum all of this up and really bring it together in a nice little neat package. If we're looking at those with perimenopause, menopause, and we're thinking about best tips for them, directions for them to really help to step in and improve their sleep, what are some of the biggest things that you think are important for that individual to know?
Irina Macare (01:03:07.712)
Yeah, as we were talking, most of the sleep problems are biology ps physiologically and psychologically. So I would say address your hormone issues working with a specialist. I know there are like emerging data about like the the benefits of hormonal replacement therapy. I'm not an expert, but from what I understand, it actually makes a huge difference.
So, working improving your hormones would help a lot with your sleep issues. And I would not necessarily state and say it's like fixing your hormones will fix your sleep issues. Working with HRT and behavior change would be like the great solution. It's not that you have to do one or. I think the best results is when you're doing them together. Because if you're working only your behavior issues and
Psychological issues, but you're still having the underlying hormonal issues, you're still going to have some struggles. So I think like the best thing that women can do when they're at perimenopause and menopause and postmenopause is to have their hormones in check, working with a specialist, but at the same time do the work on the behavior part and the psychological part.
Because we need support there as well. And we've been caregivers and we've been used to help others. Just allow your yourself to be helped and cared. So yeah.
Tansy Rodgers (01:04:45.422)
I love it. I love it so much. What an incredible conversation, a continuation of that foundational conversation. Remember, if you haven't heard the first episode, go back and check out episode 169. I will link that down in the show notes so that you can easily toggle back and forth. Irina, where can listeners find you and the work that you're doing?
Irina Macare (01:05:09.644)
Yeah. you can find me on my website. It's irinamakare.com or on Instagram. I'm the most active or on LinkedIn as well. But my website has all the details, how to contact me.
Tansy Rodgers (01:05:25.166)
Do you have any last words that you'd like to lay on the hearts of the listeners for today?
Irina Macare (01:05:30.37)
Well, I wasn't saying sleep it's not something that you do. Sleep it's something that happens to you when you create the right conditions. So you don't have to try harder or you just have to create the right conditions. And you can not broken.
Tansy Rodgers (01:05:48.926)
Thank you so much for coming back on the show. I appreciate you so much and all of your wisdom and knowledge. You are amazing.
Irina Macare (01:05:58.294)
It's always a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for inviting me.
Tansy Rodgers (01:06:03.864)
And for everyone listening, if this episode really helped to make you feel seen, or if you're realizing that you've been trying to think your way into sleep, go check out Idrena's work. I'll put her website and the links down in the show notes as always so that you can find her coaching and her resources super easily. And as always, if you know someone in midlife who is struggling with sleep and pretending that they're doing just fine.
Make sure you send them this episode. This is real support right here. And we are taking away the fluff, not only here at the energy fix, but also in all of this real life conversation that we're having. And until next time, keep spreading that beautiful energy you were born to share.
