Tansy Rodgers (00:13.752)
Welcome back to the Energy Fix, a podcast dedicated to help you balance your energetic body by diving deep into the sweet world of all things health and spirituality. My name's Tansy and I'm an intuitive crystal Reiki energy healer, energetic nutrition and holistic health practitioner, and a crystal jewelry designer. It's time to talk all things energy. Let's dive in. Welcome back.
Today, we're going to be moving into a very sciencey forward place. We're going to be talking all about the stem cell approach to extended health and longevity with Dr. Jeff Gross. Now, before we dive into today's wild and fascinating conversation, I really want to give you a quick holiday heads up. If you've been thinking that you really wanted to grab some jewelry or crystals from me, either for yourself or as gifts,
this is the time to do it and to get on it. December 15th is the cutoff for ordering jewelry and crystals in time for the holidays. And December 22nd is the cutoff for gift certificates and gifting services for those last minutes. I swear I didn't forget about you kind of moments. So if this is something interesting to you or if you've been planning to do it but you just haven't gotten there yet, either head over to tanzerojers.com or
Beukrystals.com. Again, both of those links will be down in the show notes. Head on over there and you can click in and either order directly or contact me and I can hook you up. I just wanted to make sure that I hit that right away because we are getting close to those dates. All right, we're gonna get into this conversation with Dr. Jeff Gross now. He is a neurological surgeon.
trained in biochemistry and molecular cell biology and who has spent decades working with the spine, athletic injuries, and now through his company, Re-Celebrate, anti-aging and regenerative medicines. In this episode, we're gonna be talking about a specific piece of that world in particular. We're gonna be talking about NK cell-derived exosomes. They're tiny messengers from your immune system
Tansy Rodgers (02:35.074)
that help protect your body and what happens when we harness them in a targeted way. Now, this is gonna be super interesting because he's gonna be diving deep into the sciency aspects of this and talking about why this is such an important conversation when it comes to longevity, anti-aging, and overall wellness and health and how you feel each and every day. Dr. Jeff is going to be diving into concepts like zombie cells,
why these conversations are important to talk about when we're supporting people with cancer or even using it preventatively for high-risk folks. And we're going to be getting into all different concepts about NK exosomes and how they naturally help to protect us and what we can do to be able to strengthen them so that they don't continue to weaken as we age. Now, as always,
This conversation is educational, not personal medical advice. We're exploring ideas and options and emerging therapies so that you can feel more informed and empowered, not overwhelmed or pressured to chase every new thing. So remember, keep that in mind as we're diving into this. This is so much about just curiosity and opening you up to new concepts.
If you're the kind of person who wants to live long, live well with more energy and more mobility and more presence in your actual life, this is going to be a great episode for you. All right. Let's get into this conversation with Dr. Jeff Gross. Let's dive in.
Tansy Rodgers (04:20.111)
Welcome to the Energy Fix Podcast, Dr. Jeff. Thank you so much for being here today.
My pleasure, thank you for having me.
Dr. Jeff Gross, we are going to be talking all about deep science when it comes to holistic health. We're going to really be expanding into some concepts that I don't think a lot of people understand or even know about. But before we really get into that, I want to know more about you, where you're at right now in the season of your life.
Is there a word or a phrase that you're connecting to to help you move through life a little bit better, a little bit more easy or maybe evolved?
I think there is, especially more recently, and that's the word freedom, where it spills into what I do, regenerative medicine and peptides and stem cells and biohacking and longevity things. I want patients and people to have the freedom to choose alternatives in a world that's so scripted by their sick care health insurance. So I'm a...
Dr. Jeff Gross (05:34.414)
I'm real pit bull on the nastiness that those systems do to work against patients own desire. And I think that probably spills over into a lot of different areas, but at least in my realm, freedom.
I love that. And I love pit bulls in this field. I love people that expose and just really aren't afraid to say the truth of what they have discovered on this journey. So bring it, bring it, Jeff. All right. All right. And so the word freedom, especially when we live in a society where it very much is sick care.
It's very much a scripted reality for so many people, just like you said. How are you really staying in that route of freedom, being able to move forward a little bit more confidently and also being able to stay rooted in that?
Well, first and foremost, we always stay grounded in the science. So anything we are doing must have a medical evidence background, good publications in the medical journals, the scientific journals. We're not just shooting from the hip. We do love when those scientific journals overlap with other forms of care and treatment. Some
having been around for thousands of years, but we're just now coming to an understanding of why it works. You know, we're talking about, you know, Eastern arts and Chinese medicine, and we're talking about Ayurvedic medicine, and we're talking about things our grandmothers knew for generations upon generations, but now we have a better explanation for why we do certain things and why those more natural, holistic things are probably a...
Dr. Jeff Gross (07:33.932)
better option, especially if you start early and do with them longer than some of the Western sick care, reactive surgeries and pharmaceuticals. So I think the science has to be the background. Secondly, we have to be brave. We can't just be beaten down by the health insurers and the and their, you know, their their government and lobbies that that pushes, you know, scripted care to foster
spending money in drugs and implants for surgery. So we have to be brave to do that. And very, very few doctors and colleagues are brave that I know. And I've seen them play to the mediocrity because it's just easier to practice when you do it, the insurance company will pay for
Yeah, you know, I used to work in physical therapy full time and I would see that over and over and over again and it got to the point where it was so frustrating that people's livelihoods, their health, their choices were being dictated by what the insurances had to say for them. The insurance was their voice in so many situations and then
practicing behaviors and taking certain medications that were just making them more sick. And so having these kinds of conversations is so important to really continue to drive home why we need to step outside of that model.
I agree with you 100%. Thank you.
Tansy Rodgers (09:12.984)
So Jeff, tell us a little bit about your journey. What inspired you to do this work that you're doing today and what got you here?
Well, I was practicing somewhat traditional medicine. I'm a neurological surgeon, a brain surgeon, spine surgeon. did a spine fellowship. So most of my career was treating neck and back problems, but I never really fit the mold. I was always trying not to do surgery. And I would always advise patients, and I still will, that the best person to help a patient avoid surgery is the surgeon, because we know, right?
We really know. So I was always, you know, fringe of my community because they were always looking to do more surgery, right? So they could buy their yachts and things. And, and, and, you know, I had some colleagues disgustingly would say, well, the best thing for this patient is to try more physical therapy or something. But the, the insurance has exhausted their therapy. So I'm going to recommend surgery now. Like I'd see those things and I just, I couldn't do that. I couldn't live with myself and it, it,
it sort of, you know, distance myself from that. But having had so many patients trying not to do surgery, they would always ask, well, what other alternatives do you have after you've exhausted the therapies and the, you know, the stretching and the yogas and the, you know, acupunctures and all the different, you know, different, you know, noninvasive treatments. And then sometimes we try some injections, right? That's common, but those don't always work. And when they don't,
People come back say, I still have trouble, I can't exercise, I can't do things. And I say, well, the next thing on the menu, and I hate to say that, but it's true. The next thing on the menu is surgery. Let's talk surgery. And they'd say, well, wait a minute, I'm not that bad. I'd say, good. That's what I wanted to hear because I didn't want to offer it to you anyway. And they'd say, well, how about lasers? How about this? How about stem cells? How about, and you hear stem cells enough, enough, enough. Luckily chance favors the prepared mind. And I do have undergraduate background in.
Dr. Jeff Gross (11:16.566)
molecular cell biology, is the field of stem cells. But you know, you go to undergraduate, you love that stuff. I nerded out on it then and I can still nerd out on it now. But then you go to med school, residency and practice and you sort of don't get to enjoy that. But about seven or eight years ago, I said, you know, what about them? And instead of going to the stodgy old neurosurgery meetings where bow tie wearing nerds are patting themselves on the back for doing the same things for five decades,
Yes, I said that. I started going to stem cell conferences because they're around. And I started relearning and updating and re-educating. And a lot had happened in the three decades since I got my undergraduate education. And a lot of the clinical science behind the stem cell field we call regenerative medicine, and there's more than just stem cells, but we'll call it stem cells for now, came out of Europe and Asia. And you think about it, you know,
probably heard stories of professional athletes 20 years ago going to Europe to get stem cells, right? So they could get back in the game. You got your Peyton Manning and your Tiger Woods and all these guys. then nowadays, you know, there are like mixed martial arts fighters that get sent to, you know, places in Mexico and Central America. And they've been around a long time, these places.
and in China, they're way ahead of us. So we're just late to the party. And I said, you know what, I can do this. And we wanted to add it as a tool for my spine patients, but very quickly it became all that I do. So right now I am basically non-surgical and we are doing amazing things with joints and spine and inflammatory problems and recovery from stroke and heart attack and all kinds of things. Hopefully we'll open that can of worms here as we talk.
And so you found a problem. You found, or at least you discovered that there needed to be an alternative solution, and you opened the door to that alternative solution in your area. You brought that in. And so I find that so amazingly beautiful because so many doctors, health professionals, they see that there needs to be an alternative.
Tansy Rodgers (13:38.146)
they don't go there, they stay stuck in that track. And so I love that you did that.
Thank you. Well, yeah, the Kool-Aid is very strong and I stopped drinking it a while ago. Probably never really drank much of it, but my colleagues, some of them, and some of them, I just don't understand what I'm doing. Some of them are very interested in it, but don't know how to take that jump. They don't have, you know, the gusto to be able to offer that. Although we see a growing interest in this field in America now with STEM cells and some states are making it easier with claims because of
Of course, and I'll say it here and it should be throughout this podcast, which is for educational purposes, the FDA has not approved for marketing claims any form of stem cell regenerative medicine, stem cells, exosomes, PRP, which is platelet rich plasma. None of that is approved for marketing claims. So we can't say that we're curing or treating a disease or condition. I can show you medical evidence. I can show you research. I can show you the papers we follow and the experts.
I can show you what we do, can show you individualized results, I just can't make any claims. But as a surgeon, I can never guarantee anything anyway. So it's not a big stretch to do this.
Yeah, yeah. Well, you've mentioned stem cells multiple times. We're going to be throwing out a bunch of terms that I'm sure most people here listening to this have never heard of. So let's just let's set the stage. Jeff, in your own words, what are NK cells and what problem are NK cells and their exosomes uniquely built to solve? Let's just start right there.
Dr. Jeff Gross (15:19.948)
You jump right to the graduate level question. We're skipping over stem cells and exosomes and all that stuff, which I think I need to lay some foundation if you'll allow. So we're built, we're created from an embryo that embryo is all stem cells, right? All cells stem from those cells. And the early embryonic stem cells are very powerful as we develop into a fetus and a child, they're
Sure, absolutely.
Dr. Jeff Gross (15:47.246)
They're little less powerful, but we maintain them. They help us grow and develop. And as adults, we use our stem cells to repair, restore, renew, replace. But as we age, by age, I mean, as we accumulate chronic inflammatory stresses in our cells and in our bodies through electromagnetic fields, pesticides, bad thoughts, neuro stress, kinds of things, our stem cells become less functional and exhausted.
So the root of regenerative medicine comes from being able to reapply and reactivate those very signals that heal us so that in the years where we need that help, we can have it. And that could be from a donor, from afterbirth, from placenta, amniotic fluid, umbilical cord. It can be from your own body, although if your stem cells are all inflamed and exhausted, it's probably not the best source.
and things like that. So we do that all the time. We do quite a bit of this. This is very popular now. And a lot of the signaling from the stem cells that actually do the work are from small off-bubbling called extracellular vesicles, or for fun, we call them exosomes. And most of the work of stem cells is done by exosomes. And now a lot of us don't even use the stem cells. We go right to the exosomes because they have certain advantages and they're less.
less expensive. Well, I had, you know, all kinds of things we could do for people except really we didn't have an application for cancer. And I felt that as a clinician, having taken this, you know, Hippocratic oath, one of the basic things you can do is help relieve suffering and help address people with these horrible diseases like cancer. So I was very interested and always reading about immunotherapy ways of amplifying the immune system to attack cancer, just like we
use regenerative medicine to amplify the healing and restorative systems to attack our problems, our inflammatory problems. So it turns out that there's something called the natural killer cell, which is finally answering your question. And I'm sorry, Tansy, I'm finally getting to it. But the natural killer cell is a very small percentage of the white blood cell immune system in your body. So your white blood cells are probably a smaller fraction of your blood.
Dr. Jeff Gross (18:13.294)
And of that, maybe 1 or 2 % are natural killer cells. So it's a very, very tiny fraction. However, these are very cool cells. Their job is to go around the body during our life normally, like a security system, removing bad guys. So abnormal cells get selectively removed. And these could be infected cells. They could be senescent zombie cells. These are older, boggy cells divided too many times. They have a bunch of junk in them. They leak.
They take up resources and they don't give back to the community. And we would try to get rid of those and you wanna get rid of those so you have a less older cell population by percentage. An NK or natural killer cells also remove selectively cancer cells. So during our life, we make cells, accidental cancer cells. We don't know about it, cause they get removed by our natural killer cells. Well, as it turns out, natural killer cells do their job by...
transmitting their own special out-bubbling, or exosomes, to the recipient cells, selectively affecting these abnormal cells, not our normal cells. So they're very particular. And they send these enzymes into these bad cells. And the bad cells then rupture, and their parts get recycled. But they're no longer a problem. People with cancer tend to have a reduced number.
and reduce functioning of their natural killer cells. Now I'm not saying that's the cause, but it certainly is a strategy if you can think about if you can amplify the natural killer cell system in your body to maybe help suppress the development of cancer, maybe to treat a cancer as an alternative or augmentative additional therapy, maybe someone's in remission and they want to help maintain that remission, these are excellent strategies to consider from a logical
basis. I had been trying to source those natural killer cell exosomes for quite some time. earlier than much earlier this year, I was finally able to do that. And we have been using them selectively. I have very limited supply, but selectively for cancer patients, both intravenous and injecting right into tumors. And the research is incredible on this. So this I didn't invent this, right? I just put together all the best research and said, I'm going to offer it.
Dr. Jeff Gross (20:36.482)
because I want patients to have the freedom to have these alternatives if they want. And some of our patients have had chemotherapy and radiation therapy, some refuse it. Some are at high risk, maybe they have a BRCA gene mutation and they're trying to do anything they can actively to suppress cancer. So we're trying to jazz up their natural killer function with these exosomes. Whew, I think I got it.
That was good. That was good. Well, I want to go back to just something, something, a little point that you said, and I want you to expand on this if you can. You said that there's advantages using exosomes over stem cells, but there's some advantages. What are some of those advantages of using that instead of the stem cells?
Well, first you're skipping the middleman, right? It turns out stem cells are really just a delivery vehicle of exosomes. Secondly, the exosomes are so much smaller that they travel better throughout the body in an intravenous. Most of our deliveries intravenous. There are other ways we deliver. Travels better throughout the body. Stem cells tend to get hung up in the heart and lungs, which is great for the heart and lungs, but not for the rest of the body. Also, the exosomes are a thousand times smaller than cells and cells are already small.
So exosomes will cross the blood brain barrier. will not, stem cells generally do not. And as I mentioned earlier, because of the abundance of amniotic fluid, which is the main source of exosomes, the cost is about a third of that of stem cells. So, a lot of people look at stem cell therapy as cost prohibitive and exosome therapy, think brings the benefits of stem cell therapy into a more affordable realm.
I should mention that anyone who's in listening or watching the show who's been pregnant or knows a pregnant person in their past, the pregnant women will often tell you that during their pregnancy, their hair was growing more rapidly, their skin was glowing and was youthful and other health benefits during the pregnancy. Why is that? Because they're getting a daily dose of exosomes small enough to cross the placenta.
Dr. Jeff Gross (22:50.466)
The cells from the fetus and the amniotic fluid do not cross. The cells are too big to cross and you don't want the cells to cross because remember those cells are genetically half genetically foreign to the mother and you don't want the mother to reject the baby. So the exosomes are completely neutral, naive and that's why the mothers get growing nails and beautiful scan and all these benefits during the pregnancy. They're getting.
treatment with exosomes and they need it because they're about to have to take care of this baby, right? So they need a little survival advantage.
Yeah, and so that's really fascinating, but I also love that it makes it a little bit more doable for people who haven't been able to take advantage of such an incredible therapy like stem cells because it's cost prohibitive.
It can be, yeah, I mean, it's more competitive and becoming less so. And there's a wide variety of the type of stem cell and the quality. there's a lot, I mean, this space is rapidly evolving, right? We always have something new to look at, which is great because I love that. It's keeping me fresh and interested in new things to nerd out about.
Yeah. Well, now you mentioned cancer. You talked quite a bit about how natural killer cells can detect these cancer cells that are floating within and around the body, right? So let's talk a little bit more about that. mean, it sounds like natural killer cells and K cells are actually like a security system for the body. And so I would love to know how do they normally spot early cancer? Like why, why is this?
Tansy Rodgers (24:30.858)
why is this something that's so important for us to know in how they're operating and can we use that knowledge in some way to spot cancer early?
Yeah, so we've obviously evolved the immune system to be able to do that. There are cell receptors on cancer cells that normal cells don't have and that receptor system allows the natural killer cells to find them. Of course, cancers can develop resistances to that type of immune system through what's called checkpoint inhibitors.
which is a key area of pharmaceutical development. You've got some of these anti-inflammatory infusions that work on that as well because tumors find a way, they evolve away sometimes. So natural killer cells, exosomes are very selective and useful in that way. The application of these things is very new, but the studies are amazing.
One study in mice, took malignant brain cells, brain tumor cells. And as you may know, the most malignant brain tumor is deadly. Like there's no cure for it. It's called glioblastoma. And they took glioblastoma cells and they put it just under the skin in mice and caused it to form a tumor. Then they injected the NK exosomes into the tumor and the tumor shrunk away. So that's exactly what we're trying to do. What else can we do from a therapeutic?
standpoint, we can enhance our own natural killer cell functions by doing things that stimulate immune re-reboost, like fasting, you know, a three-day fast, like other hormesis activities, which might be high-intensity exercise, you know, use the muscles hard, hot sauna, cold plunge. Certain supplements can, are known to increase the natural killer cell function in your body, like
Dr. Jeff Gross (26:35.79)
high dose glutathione, which is difficult to get in your body. Oral supplements don't always do it. So you have to look for different strategies out there. There are topicals, there are under the tongue dissolvables that I tend to use some of those. And then there's something called transfer factor, immune transfer factor. Those are the types of things we would do for anyone also. It's not just the natural killer cells.
And so as we age, do these NK cells start to fade and not work quite as well?
Yep. So with all our cells, we accumulate chronic inflammatory damage to our cells. The telomeres change, the DNA gets methylated and sort of junky, and our antibodies get like glycosylated, right? They get all these little sugar molecules attached to them. We accumulate junk, we got to clean the garage.
for your gut because hey, it's the holidays. If you're anything like me, this time of year means that your routine probably is gonna go out the window. You're gonna have more sugar, more snacks, more... sure, I'll have another one of those and a whole lot more stress on your system in general. One thing I refuse to leave behind when life gets busy is my gut support. For me, that's just Thrive Probiotics.
I love them because they focus on actually helping your gut stay strong through real life. Things like travel, holiday food, late nights, all of it. Supporting your microbiome isn't just about digestion. It ties into mood, immunity, energy, overall health and vitality. Basically how human you feel when your calendar is full and your nervous system is really, really loud.
Tansy Rodgers (28:27.978)
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Yeah, yeah. And so I'm curious, I'm curious, as we age, what have you found to be some of the best things, as these NK cells start to fade and not work quite as well, what have you found to be some of the best things that somebody can do to offset some of this fading of the of these cells?
The simplest thing is to exercise. If I were to tell people one thing you could do that doesn't need to cost you anything, it's exercise hard. Uh, it doesn't have to be painful. It just has to be, you have to do it hard instead of, you know, three sets of 10, 10 with the dumbbells. You do one set to failure. You want it's that at point of failure where the muscles release those small peptides, those myokines or extra kinds that are highly anti-inflammatory and
anything anti-inflammatory puts the body cells in a better light. So that will help you slow, fight, reverse disease potentially. It works against dementia formation, all kinds of things. Just keep moving. You have to maintain your muscle mass, which parenthetically will help you maintain your bone density, both being associated with longevity.
Tansy Rodgers (30:25.262)
And so as you're talking, I keep thinking, well, if these NK exosomes are finding and fighting off the stress and the cancer cells, well, how do they know to leave the healthy cells alone? how do they determine what is not healthy and what is healthy?
It has to do with the receptor. There's a receptor that on a healthy cell and these are cell surface receptors. So they bounce around up against these cells and they only are looking for the cancer cells which have a different pattern of cell receptors. So it's very specific.
Yeah. And say, okay, let's paint the picture. Somebody sees, somebody has detected that they have cancer and there is the potential for doing chemo or radiation. I'm curious, can NK exosomes work in conjunction with chemo and radiation or is that something that can be an alternative? What do you have to say about that?
Yeah, I mean, it could, it could be either, right? I'm not here to talk anyone out of traditional treatment unless they just have decided that's not for them. And that's okay. We have those two. We want those patients to have the same freedom. and we treat both. So it could be someone that wants to improve their cellular health in between cycles of chemotherapy or radiation, or do it before and after. It could be someone that wants to do it instead of, and we monitor them closely and it's not all we do.
For cancer, might encourage high dose IV vitamin C every week, which by the way, if you look that up on PubMed, you'll find there are incredible anti-cancer protocols. Now you don't hear about them because big pharma can't monetize it, it's vitamin C. We have IV curcumin, high dose curcumin, which comes from turmeric root, which is highly anti-inflammatory. And that also isn't something that could help fight cancer. We do that.
Dr. Jeff Gross (32:39.682)
We recommend significant phytonutrients, a lot of berry consumption, things like this. There are protocols, you can look this up, for freeze dried raspberries to fight cancer, and they've had benefits. There are many natural and holistic things you can do to prevent and fight cancer, whether it's part of a traditional scripted treatment plan or not.
And so how do NK cell exosome therapies, how do they compare to some of these other therapies and protocols?
We don't have head-to-head science on that yet. All we have is sort of the separate science and hopefully in time we'll have those studies.
Yeah. And from your experience and the work that you've done, can you share some success stories from patients that have had these MK cell exosome therapies and how well that's gone?
Yeah, now we've only had this, you know, for gosh, nine months now, but I have some, one patient in mind, I have to tell you about, had all these neck tumors and they were growing into his throat as well. He could barely, he couldn't understand it when he spoke. His voice box was affected. He had trouble eating, swallowing, trouble sometimes moving air. So with him, we did an IV of the NK-X-osomes. He also had some metastases in different spots we wanted to help with because
Dr. Jeff Gross (34:08.641)
the NK exosomes circulate throughout the body. can help, you know, potentially prevent these spread of cancer. And then I injected from the outside and in the back of his throat, the tumors with some NK exosomes. And we are probably four months out now and he can talk, he can eat. They have shrunk to some degree, both on the outside and on the inside. We're about to do some more diagnostic PET scans and things to see how we've fared on some of the other
spots that were in his body that showed up on the earlier PET scans. So, and he's a, he's a guy that just didn't want chemotherapy and radiation, but he wanted to take some self preservation activities. So he's been, you know, one of our earlier patients, I have a few other patients that have had cancer, been treated for cancer and you know, they're looking at five year survival rates. So we're giving them IVs to help.
at least theoretically extend those for those people, to reduce the chance of recurrence. And that's what we're doing.
And okay, and so.
There's some really great successes that are happening, but are there any real risks that we need to be aware of when it comes to working with these exosomes?
Dr. Jeff Gross (35:30.722)
So far not. Remember your body makes natural killer cells and those natural killer cells make exosomes. You've already got these in your body. We're just giving you a boost of them. We haven't seen any side effects except where it hurts when I poke you with a needle perhaps for a second. But no, mean there are no known side effects. It's supernatural. I mean it's natural, not supernatural. But no, nothing yet. I mean I will certainly report that if we see something but we haven't had it.
And so we're talking about the risk of people that have cancer and using these cells, exosomes to be able to treat cancer, right? Or to be able to work with cancer. What about somebody that just wants more longevity, just wants better health? How does that expand a person's longevity, vitality, and overall wellbeing?
It's a great question and there's a study on that. Dr. Gonzales, a PhD friend of mine did this study a while back and it was before they had exosomes, they had NK cells. But of course those cells make exosomes, so that's how they work. So they were able to give NK cells to people and they were able to measure in those people reduction in age-related markers, cellular markers, like senescent cells, zombie cells.
produce an enzyme and they showed a reduction in that enzyme. So that means those cells were, there were a fewer population of those cells. The enzyme for those of you who wanna nerd out is called beta-galactosidase. And the patient showed the reduction in the age-related cell markers for up to two years after the treatment. So a single infusion gave them a two-year boost in their younger.
compared to older cell populations. So if your cell population is more effectively younger than you are biologically younger, and we have all kinds of tests now to look at biological age, not just chronological age. So you might be 50 on a calendar, but you may have the cells of a 35-year-old or vice versa. You might have the cells of an 85-year-old. So we really wanna work to reduce your biological age so we can foster that healthy longevity, that health span.
Tansy Rodgers (37:50.698)
Yeah, and that makes a lot of sense. mean, I feel like when I hear about stem cells, yes, there's much about recovery, but I feel like the biggest conversation is really about what it can do for you living even just a healthy life, an extended life, one that actually has vitality and longevity.
And we see that with our non-natural killer cell regenerative exosomes, the stem cell derived exosomes we get from amniotic fluid. We see people with improved energy, reduced biological age, improved HRV, which is a health metric you might have on your Apple watch or another measuring device, which is a very sensitive metric of health, heart rate variability. We see these things, plus people feel good, they feel better.
So that's at the end of the day, we wanna feel younger, we wanna act younger, we want to look younger and all these things we have approaches for.
Yeah. Now you've already mentioned the protocols for when somebody does have cancer, other things that people can do. But just in general, when we're talking about NK exosomes, how do they really stack up against other immune therapies?
Well, we don't have the head-to-head competition science yet, however. NKX-osomes are an off-the-shelf treatment. If you look at a lot of the other immune therapies, it requires taking some tissue, maybe a cancer tissue, some blood cells, going to the lab, re-engineering, taking the genes, splicing the genes in. That's called CAR-T therapy, C-A-R-T, where you're actually creating some T cells that make the cancer protein so that you're...
Dr. Jeff Gross (39:39.214)
Your body can recognize it as foreign and create an immune response that there's a lot of, you know, lab work for that and requires, you know, quite a bit of expense where these, the natural killer cells are off the shelf. Now you could use these things in combination as well. You you hear about cancer vaccines. So CAR T therapy is kind of a form of that. There are other types of vaccines out there, other types of immunotherapies. So in terms of ease and accessibility, the natural killer cells.
Exosomes are probably going to be the best way to approach it. Maybe not the most efficacious way. We don't know yet. But the most efficient and easy way to approach it off the shelf without having to, you know, do, you know, two months worth of lab work on someone's tissue and splicing genes and all that.
Yeah. Well, we've talked a lot about NK cells, but I'm curious. There's another kind of cell called a zombie cell. I would love to talk about what is a zombie cell and why is that important in this conversation?
Well, the zombie cells are, you when our cells are sort of done, they're just older, they're done with their job, they've divided too many times, they can't divide again. They start to bloat and they collect these enzymes and inflammatory stresses and they leak them. And that leakage affects our other cells. And these are scientifically called senescent cells, but we call them zombie cells. And the more of them they have, the more likely you are senescent or you're a zombie. So.
we have to do whatever we can to remove them. And again, you can do fasting, you can do hot saunas, you can do other hormesis type biohacking activities. You could also increase your natural killer cell function. You could do the glutathione, you could do other transfer factor, or you could take natural killer cells or natural killer cell exosomes.
Tansy Rodgers (41:35.971)
And so what you're saying is that zombies can really walk amongst us according to these zombie cells that we have.
Did hang really?
They really do. So when you're watching these movies about the zombie apocalypse, it's within you. So you've got to take out the zombies.
It is, yeah. So what you're saying, though, is that the MK exosomes can help to actually clear the body of these cells.
Correct.
Tansy Rodgers (42:04.958)
And what, I know that you rattled off a couple different things that somebody could do, but what do you think, what have you found to be one of the best methods or the best behaviors for somebody to implement to be able to activate this a little bit better for the body?
Well, this might be personal, but I like the fasting. I like the hard exercise. Again, this is pushing your muscles to the limit. And then I like the hot sauna. A cold plunge will help too. I just don't love it myself. I'm more of a hot sauna guy than I'm a cold plunge guy. And the supplements are easier, right? Anyone can take gluothione and Transfer Factor. Those are abundantly available.
I hear you on the cold plunge. No, thank you. I know. I know. I know is so good for the vagus nerve and for so much more nervous system. But yeah, it's rough.
It's cold, it's still cold.
It's still cold. Yes. Yes. Well, OK. Now let's talk about progress. Let's talk about measuring the progress. What labs or ways of measuring progress do you find helpful? And if we're implementing this kind of therapy, realistically, what can we expect in time frame to actually see change, to see things happening?
Dr. Jeff Gross (43:33.292)
Well, we'll take that part first. We're learning this patient by patient. We don't have a long history of applying this, but it's cancer. So I don't want to hold it back from people that want to try it. So my one patient with the tumors on the outside of his neck and inside of his throat, you know, he's been three or four months to see this kind of shrinkage. And I don't even know if the remaining masses are tumor or just dead tissue. So we're going to be following
You said, can we measure it? We're going to be following for him a PET scan because his PET scan beforehand, before we did this treatment, was very specific as to where he had active metabolic tumor living in his body. The other thing we can follow is if someone has a blood marker for cancer, there are all kinds of blood markers, know, breast has certain different ones and colon cancer has certain different ones. So we watch the levels of those markers. Of course we want to see those markers go down.
Tansy Rodgers (44:35.052)
How easy is it for somebody to access this therapy?
Well, it's as easy as a phone call. You just give us a call or reach out and we have a talk.
And is your office, your practice, one of the few that are really even offering this at this point?
As far as I know, we're the only one in the US with NK-X-osomes. I've recommended to a few other colleagues that can add it in the US, but I don't know if they have, but it's gonna come. If it's not here already, it's coming.
Yeah. Well, that makes me really curious. Is it very challenging to make clinical grade NK exosomes?
Dr. Jeff Gross (45:21.422)
Yes. I'm glad you asked.
Why is it so hard? Let's talk about that. Why is that so hard?
Well, first of all, NK cells again are a small percentage of your white blood cells, which are a small percentage of your blood. So it's, it's hard to isolate natural killer cells to begin with, then to get them to live in a flask or a Petri dish type situation. And then when you get enough of them and they're, they have a happy environment, they have to be able to produce the exosomes and
I like them naturally produced. are some methods of stimulating to be produced, like prodding them in a way. Those are called activated NK cells. But we're learning the best way to do this. But anyway, to make these at scale is quite a lot of lab work. The beauty of the NK exosomes is that lab work is done independent of the patient. can be done ahead of time. Whereas if you do some of the other immunotherapy approaches,
you have to take tissue from the patient, then do the lab work and it takes a long time. So we've been, I've been seeking these NK exosomes for a couple of years. had my feelers out in China, in Europe, and finally we were able to get some from a reputable lab in Europe.
Tansy Rodgers (46:40.142)
How did you really secure reliable access?
Well, we interviewed the scientists, we got all the paperwork where they're registered with European Union. We got their third-party testing results. Because when I use something, I need to vet the quality and look at the... It has to be actually documented. can't be just something they're telling us, right? Because the salespeople will tell you whatever. So this was me reaching out to them and sorting it out. And I've been...
I've had my feelers out for quite some time, so we were finally happy to get some.
Wow, yeah, you really had to do a lot of research and interaction and finding. Because just like you said in the very beginning, you are stepping into this pit bull phase of just needing to expose everything and having all of these options available to bring forward and to do the work that you want to do. And so that must have really took a lot of time, research, and
exploration to be able to find what you want it to find.
Dr. Jeff Gross (47:49.292)
Yeah, like you said at beginning, I like to nerd out. So I've been reading and reading and I do the deep dives and I can get, I can lose myself, you know, in PubMed. But, you know, after you look at these things, so I started writing and reading and, you know, giving speeches on this and it just became sort of a niche that I really wanted to pursue for people. There are other approaches. This is just the one I've planted my flag in.
Mm, yeah. Well, let's talk about healthy lifestyles in general, behaviors, and how these exosomes can really fit next to them so beautifully. Where do exosomes fit next to sleep and strength training and metabolic health, light exposure, breath work, all of the stress regulation?
Those lifestyle, we call it epigenetic activities where it does affect what genes are being called upon is most important. Even if we're looking at some type of exosome therapy for someone, I want them to be dialed in on all the healthy components because if you come to me and your diet is bad, you're not sleeping and you're stressed and you're not healthy, you're really not gonna get the most out of the exosomes and therefore it's not a good use of your money.
I really think that the choices we make with our activities, with our diet, with our sleep and all these things are probably the most important element of healthy longevity and feeling good, looking good, being good on the inside internally at the cellular level. If you're already there and you want to boost, you want to foster cellular health for longevity and you want to feel better, perform better, that's where we can...
biohack or use the regenerative medicine, the stem cell derived exosomes. My more popular niche though, and I'm going outside your question a little, is for joint and spine health. Remember, I started there and the reason why I got into this field was to add it for my spine patients, but I do quite a few spine and joint treatments using stem cell derived exosomes and we are helping people avoid surgery, reduce pain, improve function.
Dr. Jeff Gross (50:04.28)
And we have examples of improvement in cartilage wear down, improvement in what's called osteoarthritis. We even take people who are told they're bone on bone, they need a knee replacement, and we move them backwards in that progression so they can delay or even prevent that surgery.
I love that. That's my world. That is, that's my world. And it's my favorite part of the physical therapy that I used to do is all the orthopedics and just seeing so many people come in that were bone on bone that needed knee replacements. thought that there was no other option to have options is so freeing and life transforming.
Yeah, no, absolutely right. And I started out with the spine, but now I probably do more peripheral joints than I do spine work. And we have some new things coming from the spine. even more fantastic, but the joints, we just have amazing results. I continue to be amazed by what the stem cell exosomes can do for people. And I love it. If I could do this work and not have to do surgery.
I think that I feel like my career has advanced, right? I've taken this surgical knowledge and figured out how to help people not have it.
This episode is brought to you in part by Fusionary Formulas Tumoric Gold, which has become one of my go-tos when my body is feeling inflamed and it feels like it needs more support. Between long days on my feet at events and workouts and sitting at the computer and you know, existing as a human being during the holidays, my joints and muscles can get pretty cranky. Tumoric Gold is formulated to support
Tansy Rodgers (51:51.062)
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If you click the link and use the code TANZY15, you get 15 % off your entire order. That way you can try all different things at Fusionary Formulas. Again, that is code TANZY15 when you click the link down in the show notes. Here is to a happy, healthy body that is pain free and feeling pretty darn amazing.
Do you also, when people come to you about this therapy, do you also do the coaching around the other things like you just said, the sleep and the healthy nutrition and you bring all of that together?
We do know a lot of people that are seeking stem cell based treatments, they're already dialed in. A lot of those people are dialed in, but if they're not, we help them get dialed in. We want to coach them at every level there. And a lot of these things are free, know, some diet advice, some exercise advice, some sleep habits, know, things like that. It doesn't cost you anything to do those things.
Yeah. What do you see as people are starting to connect to this, to learn about this more, they're starting to dial it in. What do you see the future of these NK derived exosomes really expanding into?
Dr. Jeff Gross (53:42.86)
Yeah. I mean, I see, I see people using them for cancer augmentation treatment. see people using them for alternative. see people using them for anti-aging, anti-senescent cell, anti-frailty, immune boosting. And, you know, that's a subset of our stem cell exosomes work. So, you know, the NK exosomes would be specific and special, but we have, you know,
Quite a few patients who do IV exosomes or intranasal for brain health is a great way to deliver. We've done inhalational exosomes. Had a sweet woman who, you know, just she got bronchitis after COVID and she couldn't, they put her on oxygen at home. She couldn't get off of it. She was dependent on it. We actually did one breathing treatment with exosomes and she has been oxygen free now for two years. So again, I continue to be amazed by what
the regenerative biologics can do for people.
Wow, wow. Do you see that these exosomes could be one of the leading treatments for cancer in the future? Do you see that this could be something that could really take off and expand?
Not as long as Big Pharma has a say in it, unless they take it over and monetize it. I think it's gonna be difficult, but if you're a patient or you have a family member or friend facing cancer and you're doing the homework and looking at things and you do it objectively, it's something worth looking at.
Tansy Rodgers (55:19.554)
Yeah. Well, Jeff, for somebody who's facing a tough diagnosis right now, what smart questions should they bring to their care team to really evaluate if or when an exosome approach belongs in their plan?
Well, this, this happens all the time. interestingly, because I have patients who we say, Hey, there's an alternative for your knee degeneration. I can do this excessome injection. And here are the results that, I, from the literature that we, that we want to duplicate. And, the, they go back and see the orthopedic surgeon, the orthopedic surgeon, when they'd say, that's illegal or it's, it's not proven. and, and sometimes those patients are torn who to listen to. And.
I tell them it's your choice. You listen to who you want to listen to, right? mean, surgery is always an option. I'm not saying it's the wrong option. It should be the last option in those cases. So I think that there is a barrier because so many physicians are wearing the blinders. They're trained a certain way. They drank the Kool-Aid and they can't get the Kool-Aid out of their freaking systems. And because of that,
what they learned 20, 30 years ago in their training from professors who learned it 30 years hence, they're stuck in that very 1970s treatment algorithm and they just won't take the time to look at the updated literature because it's not part of their orthopedic annual meeting. I went to North American Spine Society meeting a couple of years ago, I even did a social media post.
They had all the different topics on these posters. And I took a video of like, look, they've got, you know, new ways of putting in hardware and this and that, and this, and there was like nothing on non-surgical regenerative medicine approaches to the spine. And I thought, this is wrong. This is wrong. We need to open our minds. We can't be so close-minded. And that's the problem.
Tansy Rodgers (57:19.31)
Do you think everything that you just said, do you think that's why there's so much pushback? Do you think that that is the specific reason why?
That and the financial rut of the big implant and big pharma is pushing sales and pushing education and has their finger on the scale of a balanced look at all the different approaches. Absolutely. And the government too, regulations and into the, from the lobbyists forcing the regulations, the regulations are pushing the insurers to only pay for certain things.
Yeah, you know, as you're talking, I'm thinking of all of these things that would happen regularly in the clinic that I worked in. And it just, it makes me laugh from an outside perspective now, but when I was in the middle of it, it was very frustrating because you saw it over and over and over and you knew that there were other options that just weren't being looked at. I remember something even so basic, I had a client that I was working with.
And he was an older doctor. And when I say older, he was like 85 and very old school. And we were having conversations just about nutrition. And I brought up about organic foods and da, da, da, you know, and pesticides and very basic conversation, right? And he said, stuff doesn't mean anything. It doesn't matter. You don't need to worry about that. Exactly. And so,
I can only imagine when you and your team are stepping into this field that is so much more advanced and you are creating new opportunities, the pushback that you might see is probably very overwhelming at times.
Dr. Jeff Gross (59:11.95)
yeah, a lot of pushback. I've got a patient right now who's looking at some knee injections and things and her daughter is some kind of clinician and the daughter's forcing her to have a knee replacement. So I can't tell her what to do, but the Kool-Aid leaks out of the physicians into the patients and other people. So there are options. Leave no stone.
Un-turned, look at everything, especially if it's cancer. I was just talking about knee degeneration, but look at cancer. You should be everything you possibly can. There are so many things you can do naturally, even short of regenerative medicine or natural killer cell exosomes.
Yeah. For the listener, if there was just one or two things that you would say are the most important pieces to remember about the conversation that we've had today, what would you want to really drive home to them?
Yeah, I mean, lifestyle, you know, behaviors are probably the most important thing you can do to help prevent disease, slow the development of disease, slow the aging process. And really aging is just, you know, the faster you age, the more inflammation you have, the more likely you'll have disease. Those go together. So, you know, exercise hard, sleep well, eat with the sun and not when it's dark, eat
properly avoid seed oils and sugar as much as you can and things, know, protein, protein, protein. We don't get enough protein in this country. If you go to Europe, they have protein for breakfast. We don't, at least if you watch TV and look at commercials, we have cereal. So during a famine, I'm sure that was reasonable. We're not in a famine anymore. So good, good protein, high quality protein, take the right supplements. We do need them. We're not getting enough omega threes and vitamin D three and
Dr. Jeff Gross (01:01:12.632)
things like that, and do all those things. And you may not have to develop diseases. You may age slower. And you see this, right? You see two 80 year olds and one of them looks young and active and one looks like, you gets to visit you, you get to visit in the nursing home. Why is that? Well, one is more inflamed. If you did the blood on those two patients, one would have more inflammation.
inflammatory markers, cellular damage, loss of muscle mass, loss of bone density. The piece I probably missed here is hormone replacement. It is crucial to have bioidentical hormone replacement, both for men and women. Otherwise you will age faster and inflame faster when that change occurs. Now men, it's more gradual, women obviously it's more abrupt. The earlier you start and the longer you do, guided by a good clinician who knows how to do that bioidentical.
hormone replacement, not synthetic junk. And even if you, you're in menopause, it's not too late to start. and the myths of the last 20 years have been debunked.
And when you say it's not too early to start the hormone replacement, what do you see age-wise is probably optimal?
Are we talking about men or women? Okay, men, we're starting to see low testosterone in the thirties, in their thirties. I don't know if it's the microplastics or the pesticides or what have you. We don't know exactly. It's probably some of that or all of it, but we check labs. We ask them lots of questions, right? This is clinical. How do you, how's your energy? You know, how's your libido? How's this? How's that? How's your muscle? Can you maintain muscle mass? You know?
Tansy Rodgers (01:02:32.994)
Let's talk both.
Dr. Jeff Gross (01:02:58.584)
course, sitting around at home playing video games is not going to maintain your muscle mass. So that's, that's something. And then we do labs, of course, to check. then with the women, usually forties, you know, when they're starting to have a little decline, even if they don't feel it yet, you know, some of the early signs of premenopause might be dry skin, little hair loss, achy, you know, joints, maybe even little loss of muscle mass.
And these aren't full on menopausal symptoms at all, but when you look back, they are over-inflamed areas of the cells in the body because the body doesn't have the best anti-inflammatory soup going on at that time, which includes the right hormones.
That's good. That's good to know just to give perspective of people. And it's also good that you said men are a little different than women just to get perspective to know are you at the age to start looking into this. So very interesting.
You can always look and if your numbers are good, you're not feeling it, then you don't have to start. Why Why not? Look, that should be part of your regular lab. So if you go to a typical doctor, your labs are very basic, very basic.
Yeah. Well, this has been such an interesting conversation and absolutely a conversation that is going to need more expansion and more diving into because we just scratched the surface. that's what I love about this podcast and bringing on so many different modalities is it's really about allowing people to discover new opportunities and new
Tansy Rodgers (01:04:43.39)
new modalities that will help to expand the longevity and the health of someone. So thank you so much. Now, before we go into where people can find you, let's just do a little bit fun, rapid fire questions. Let the listener get to know you a little bit deeper. I am so curious what you'll say. Remember, these are just right off the top of your head. Whatever comes to mind. All right. Are you ready?
Number one, finish this sentence, my cells do better when I.
when I have been exercising hard.
I like that, I like that. All right, number two, one non-negotiable daily habit for longevity. No gear, no apps, just you. What is one non-negotiable for you?
my nighttime melatonin and magnesium.
Tansy Rodgers (01:05:42.238)
Hmm. I like that. All right. And number three, if you could myth bust one idea about cancer or aging with a billboard, what would it say?
You don't have to do what the regular doctor and regular person would do. There are alternatives to both.
Beautiful, beautiful, which really just sums up and wraps up this whole conversation that we just had. Jeff, where can people find you? What do you have going on in your work right now? And what are you excited about?
Thank you. Well, our company is called re-celebrate because we are celebrating the renewal of your cells. And our clinic is in Las Vegas, Nevada, but the vast majority of my patients aren't in Las Vegas. We have the magic of telehealth video telehealth. So we usually do our consultations remotely. We can order tests and MRIs and things we need to do remotely and work those up and only invite people here to Las Vegas if they need to do something. Luckily,
There's plenty to do here, shows, nice restaurants, things like that. Also, I hear they have some gambling, but don't come for that necessarily. So, re-celebrate is the name of our clinic and it's R-E-C-E-L-L-E-B-R-A-T-E. So, if you just search that, I think we pretty much cornered the internet on that word because we made that word up. And we have different types of approaches to things. have also, we launched in May.
Dr. Jeff Gross (01:07:22.638)
a plant derived exosome nutraceutical, which we really didn't get into Tansy, but plants make exosomes too. That's how they deliver their phytonutrients to ourselves. And at 700 to 4,500 times the concentration, then you'd get from a regular supplement. we have an anti-aging supplement from curated organic Italian fruits in the blue.
zone of the Mediterranean. It's called Longevex. So Exosomes for Longevity, Longevex. Look that one up.
We didn't get to talk about that. I'm curious. know. By the way, all those links will be down in the show notes, so make sure you jump on down and grab those links. But before we finish up for today, I want to know a little bit more about that. Are there specific foods that you find are very rich in these exosomes?
Yeah. Well, you can get mammalian exosomes, like we're mammals, sorry, mammalian exosomes from bone broth, bone marrow, chicken soup, chicken stock, because it comes from the bone marrow and the bone marrow is so rich in the stem cells and exosomes. You can get it from colostrum and even from milk. And the ones that plants have are different. They don't affect our cells the same way. They deliver the phytonutrients.
Nature's already figured out how to package the phytonutrients. all the things that like our product, we've shown in preclinical studies to increase SIRC2N1 gene activity, which is an anti-aging gene in your mitochondria. We've shown reduced reactive oxygen species. So reduced cellular stress, the less cellular stress, the less cellular aging. So it's more of an anti-aging. We're working on some others for other purposes, but right now this is our little baby.
Tansy Rodgers (01:09:22.216)
Mm. Awesome. I love it. I love it. Well, again, those links will be down in the show notes. You can check out more about these supplements that Dr. Jeff was just talking about. Do you have any last words that you would like to lay on the hearts of the listeners for today before we sign off?
Yeah, thank you for having me. I think that, you know, for everyone out there with a problem that hasn't been satisfied with the typical medical approach, keep looking, don't give up. Look at alternatives, have an open mind, find a doctor with an open mind, keep asking questions. That's my advice.
Thank you so much for being here today. Thank you for the work that you're doing and for opening up new paths for people to heal and explore in a real way. This, feel like it's truly going to change the future. I feel like this is something that we don't know that we need yet. And I'm excited to see how it expands.
Thank you so much for having me and for saying that. Looking forward to helping, even if we have one person with this broadcast, it'll be worth it.
Okay as we wrap up for today, I want you just to take a moment and notice what stood out for you from this conversation. Maybe it was the idea that our own immune system has these tiny messengers working behind the scenes, or maybe it was hearing about zombie cells and realizing that aging is way more complex, but more hopeful than just everything seems to fall apart, right? We are
Tansy Rodgers (01:11:04.554)
opening to new opportunities. The goal here isn't for you to walk away with a new to-do list of fancy therapies. Rather, it's for you to have better questions for your providers, for your own body, and for how you want to feel as you move through the next decade of your life. If something Dr. Jeff shared sparked curiosity within you, I want you to go check out his work at Re-Celebrate.
And as I've said before, I will have all of those links down in the show notes so that you can explore more on your own time. Remember, if this episode really touched you, please share it out. Get the wheels turning about your own health and longevity, but also share that with others. Share it with a friend who's thinking about aging differently. Leave a quick rating or a review for the energy fix.
It means more than you know in helping to grow this show. And until next time, keep spreading that beautiful energy you were born to share.
